<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Hi all and thank you for those interesting developments<br><br></div>My point is all about semantics and ease the mappers' work<br></div>Like everyone, I agree to distinguish pressurized fire hydrants, and "dry" hydrants like ones where a pump is required to get water.<br></div>But not in favor of an additional value of emergency key.</div><div>This will lead to extra large and cluttered like emergency=big_yellow_fire_hydrant and emergency=small_cap_covering_underground_valve<br></div><div>It's really interesting both from mapper and consumer view to use several keys to give pieces of information.<br></div><div><br></div>In some countries, pressurized hydrants and dry points have the same shape, only their colour change.<br></div>There is 100% chance a not knowledgable mapper will use emergency=fire_hydrant instead of anything else.<br></div><div>This is a dry "hydrant" : <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg</a><br></div><div><br></div>Pressurized or not, there are <span id="gmail-result_box" class="gmail-short_text" lang="en"><span class="gmail-">connectorized</span></span> pipes wich allow firefighters to get water which have a given appearance on ground (barrel, underground, pipe...)<br></div><div>Even if it's not always pressurized, the design of such things is done as to allow the water to flow under pressure (gravity, pumped or whatever) and that's why I like to think "dry" and "pressurized" "hydrants" are all members of the same set of feature.<br></div>Otherwise, you have ponds, wells, which are open field water sources<br><br></div>In a second time, i respectably disagree (without shortening the good work done) to namespaces keys suction_point:, fire_hydrant: and so on...<br></div>In some cases they are redundant and don't ease the key name typing in editors without pressets.<br></div>It may be great to don't encourage them, please.<br><br></div>Let's keep up with looking for the best tagging<br><br></div>Cheers<br><br></div>François<br><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><b>François Lacombe</b><br><br>fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com<br><a href="http://www.infos-reseaux.com" target="_blank">www.infos-reseaux.com</a><br><a href="http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux" target="_blank">@InfosReseaux</a></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-08-17 12:54 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:colin.smale@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">colin.smale@xs4all.nl</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<p>Suction point is probably not the right word in English. I haven't found any specific idiomatic usage of this phrase, so it seems to just mean "point where suction is present/applied". Dry Hydrant seems a better fit for what you are discussing, do you agree?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nfpa.org/assets/gallery/firewise/operationWater/step3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.nfpa.org/assets/<wbr>gallery/firewise/<wbr>operationWater/step3.htm</a></p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant#Non-pressurized_.28dry.29_hydrants" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Fire_hydrant#Non-pressurized_.<wbr>28dry.29_hydrants</a></p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>//colin</p></font></span><div><div class="h5">
<p>On 2017-08-17 12:32, Moritz wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
<div class="m_5280277085621057674pre" style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family:monospace"><span style="white-space:nowrap">Hi François, hi Alberto,</span><br> <br> we had in the past days a discussion on the german OSM forum[<a href="https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352" target="_blank">3</a>] and agreed on the point that<br> a point where you can suck water from a water source is a emergency=suction_point.<br> Our understanding of a fire hydrant is, that it is connected to a water main and thus any<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction point is no fire <wbr>hydrant.</span><br> <br> The special case of commercial area where the owner is responsible for the hydrants and the hydrants are fed by<br> pumps from ground water or by tanks were not discussed (as Viking81 wrote on the discussion pages of [<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions" target="_blank">1</a>] and [<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well" target="_blank">2</a>]).<br> <br> As I am a firefighter by myself I think there is such thing, but I will figure out with the local fire department.<br> <br> We furthermore agreed that there is no need of my newly proposed tag emergency=fire_water_well as we can define<br> the different types of suction points by adding appropriate tags for each type.<br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">My point is suction points and fire hydrant are different but compatible things, as follow :<br> emergency=suction_point is a prefered place where to pump water in a river</blockquote>
<span style="white-space:nowrap">I think you meant from a <wbr>river. But yes I agree.</span><br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0"><span style="white-space:nowrap">emergency=fire_hydrant</span><br> is a kind of device which may or not be present in places like suction points but in a large amount of other places.</blockquote>
<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Nope.</span><br> Fire hydrant: pressurized water from water main. Edge case of Vikings point not yet covered<br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">Hydrants that serve factories or shopping centers often are not connected to the public water main:<br> instead they are connected to a private local water network fed by pumps that suck water from the ground.<br> So these local water networks and their hydrants are fed by what we can call water wells.</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Suction points</span><br> <br> Points where the firefighter have to bring there own pump to suck water from pond, river or well.<br> These suction points can be equipped with a pipe connected to the water or not. Something like this with pipe [<a href="http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg" target="_blank">4</a>][<a href="http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg" target="_blank">5</a>][<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg" target="_blank">6</a>].<br> <br> Or this [<a href="http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg" target="_blank">7</a>][<a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg" target="_blank">8</a>] which also is a suction point, which can has a sign. But basically it's just an somehow prepared point to have<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">easier access to the water <wbr>itself.</span><br> <br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0"><br> We need to know if the common accepted definition of suction point is this:<br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Suction points aren't devices <wbr>like hydrants but are <wbr>preferred places</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">to pump water from a not <wbr>pressurized water source (<wbr>river, pond, well).</span></blockquote>
<br> Yes<br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0"><span style="white-space:nowrap">Hydrant is an equipment/<wbr>device and suction point is a <wbr>place where you</span></blockquote>
Yes<br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0"><span style="white-space:nowrap">may or not find a hydrant.</span></blockquote>
No. I would not call a pipe at a suction point hydrant (lack of pressured water).<br> At least from my German point of view, because here pipe and hydrant look different.<br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0"><span style="white-space:nowrap">In this case the hydrant will <wbr>be tagged emergency=fire_<wbr>hydrant +</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">fire_hydrant:pressure=0.</span></blockquote>
<br> Nope, because then you have emergency=fire_hydrant but you have to bring your own pump to get water. To be sure you have to<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">evaluate the fire_hydrant:<wbr>pressure tag to determine <wbr>what it is.</span><br> <br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Here is the outcome of the <wbr>discussion in the German <wbr>forum:</span><br> <br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap"># Suction point with pipe at <wbr>a lake, river, stream etc (<wbr>like [<a href="http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg" target="_blank">5</a>])</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">emergency=suction_point</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:source=water</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:position=lane|<wbr>parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br> <br> <br> # Suction point at fire_water_pond (artificially created pond, otherwise it is the above one)<br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">emergency=suction_point</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:source=fire_<wbr>water_pond</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:volume=# (<wbr>volume in m^3)</span><br> suction_point:productivity=<wbr>small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:position=lane|<wbr>parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br> <br> # Some prepared suction place at  lake, river, stream etc, but without a pipe (like [<a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg" target="_blank">8</a>][<a href="http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg" target="_blank">7</a>])<br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">emergency=suction_point</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:type=suction_<wbr>place</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:source=water</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap"># Suction point at water_tank</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">emergency=suction_point</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:source=water_<wbr>tank</span><br> suction_point:volume=small|<wbr>medium|large|# (small 75–150 m^3, small 150–300 m^3 und large>300 m^3; volume in m^3)<br> suction_point:productivity=<wbr>small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:position=lane|<wbr>parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br> <br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap"># Normal fire water well</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">emergency=suction_point</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:type=fire_water_<wbr>well</span><br> suction_point:productivity=<wbr>small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:position=lane|<wbr>parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">fire_water_well:type=suction</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">fire_water_well:water_level=# <wbr>(distance water level-ground)</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap"># Fire water well with <wbr>integrated pump (electric or <wbr>water driven pump)</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">emergency=suction_point</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:type=fire_water_<wbr>well</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">suction_point:position=lane|<wbr>parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br> suction_point:productivity=<wbr>small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">fire_water_well:type=bilge_<wbr>pump|electric_pump</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">With this tagging scheme <wbr>there are still some issues:</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">For productivity tag I just <wbr>copied from the German <wbr>standards.</span><br> <br> In case of a water_tank the volume belongs technically to the water_tank itself<br> but not to the suction point. But I think it is more convenient because as water_tanks<br> are usually hidden under ground they are not as visible as suction points. So I<br> assume they will be not mapped as often as suction points. Other point: to get the volume<br>  information of the suction point you have also to check the next water_tank. Seems inconvenient.<br> <br> <br> For the special case hydrants on commercial area sourced from pumps or water_tanks I would go for hydrant. Because<br> the whole thing behaves more like a hydrant then a suction point (at least as long the tank is not empty or the wells<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">are not exhausted).</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Why is a water well with an <wbr>integrated pump not a hydrant:</span><br> <br> Special case of water well. And firefighters expect from a hydrant that they just have to connect there hose and get water easily.<br> With the well with integrated pump you have to keep in mind that you have to bring a pump or a generator.<br> <br> <br> I would suggest, that we discuss all stuff here, not on the wiki discussion page as long as no new participant shows up.<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Mailinglist is easier to use.</span><br> <br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Cheers,</span><br> Moritz<br> <br> <br> [1] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_<wbr>features/Fire_Hydrant_<wbr>Extensions</a><br> [2] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_<wbr>features/Fire_water_well</a><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">[3] <a href="https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352" target="_blank">https://forum.<wbr>openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.<wbr>php?id=59352</a></span><br> [4] <a href="http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/<wbr>typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_<wbr>saugstelle.jpg</a><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">[5] <a href="http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.teleos-web.de/<wbr>fschubert4/gfx/Bild%<wbr>20Saugstelle2.jpg</a></span><br> [6] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_<wbr>water_pond.jpg</a><br> [7] <a href="http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.infranken.de/<wbr>storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_<wbr>cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_<wbr>1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg</a><br> [8] <a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg" target="_blank">https://upload.wikimedia.org/<wbr>wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/<wbr>Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_<wbr>Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_<wbr>Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/<wbr>1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_<wbr>der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_<wbr>Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg</a><br> <br> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Tagging mailing list</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap"><a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a></span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap"><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/listinfo/tagging</a></span></div>
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