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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-08-30 13:34, Lukas Sommer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFTrL-1yq+A0qddPfoHv5OnMFOZD9W-tLx4HURMKCKwnfP=asQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Voting at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Language_information">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Language_information</a>
is open.
</pre>
</blockquote>
Hi Lukas,<br>
<br>
The syntax is wrong. It must be <keyname>:language=<BCP-47
code> (qualifier to the right).<br>
Example too language:name=bg --> name:language=bg<br>
<br>
Many wiki definitions are unclear about term definitions and don't
say well why the tag is used.<br>
This one too.<br>
Because contributors rarely read long explanations, you should
briefly say that language=* is used so that programs knew the
language of name=* if they want to display a name in a particular
language or if they want to use special fonts for a particular
language, and then refer to Rationale.<br>
For example, people said that name:ja=北京市 is already defined and
that language=ja is unnecessary.<br>
This means that they did not understand your proposal.<br>
An OSM contributor should understand the wiki.<br>
<br>
The proposition says that language= is not necessary for every name
but it is.<br>
It is so that software knows that name=* contains e.g. the French
name if it asked to use French.<br>
Otherwise, the local name=* must be duplicated as name:fr=*<br>
<br>
I said before that either we use language=* on every name (key) or
we rely on <b>a default</b> for those having no language=*. That
is plain logic. Else there will be names for which software cannot
know the value of language=*.<br>
(your) example: name:language=ja on all Japanese names or as a Japan
default somewhere <b>in the OSM database</b>.<br>
You replied that language= needs no default. That sentence needs a
justification like mine.<br>
You replied that <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Defaults">Proposed_features/Defaults</a>
is abandoned. First, doing so is a big mistake. Second, doing so
does not suppress the need for defaults. You said that that
proposition relates only to maxspeed and it's untrue.<br>
Lack of defaults is a problem that exists for other keys. Solving
the OSM lack of defaults is a priority.<br>
I have just repeated a comment about that in "Defaults are
paramount" message on this list.<br>
<br>
The proposition says that OSM.org do intentionally not use tags like
name:en, name:ja, name:de…<br>
It is not intentional. It's because map tiles can only have one
language and it's impossible to display the languages in the user's
order of preferences.<br>
<br>
The proposition says that the BCP-47 codes must be used.<br>
But it does not say why codes different from ISO 639 (used by OSM)
are necessary and how to use them.<br>
<br>
You say that Bulgarian Cyrillic is written differently than Russian.<br>
Could you show more examples (URLs) that just one word?<br>
I have read Bulgarian many times and I never saw a difference.<br>
<a
href="https://www.google.be/search?&q=site:bg+%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BF+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0">
<span class="moz-txt-link-freetext"></span></a><a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.be/search?&q=site:bg+%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BF+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.google.be/search?&q=site:bg+мап+карта">https://www.google.be/search?&q=site:bg+мап+карта</a></a>
does not show different Cyrillic.<br>
Here is their alphabets according to Russian ВикипедиЯ and Bulgarian
УикипедиЯ (they should know).<br>
<br>
<table cols="33" border="0" cellspacing="0">
<colgroup span="33" width="85"></colgroup> <tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="middle">Russian<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT" height="16">А а</td>
<td align="LEFT">Б б</td>
<td align="LEFT">В в</td>
<td align="LEFT">Г г</td>
<td align="LEFT">Д д</td>
<td align="LEFT">Е е</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ё ё</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ж ж</td>
<td align="LEFT">З з</td>
<td align="LEFT">И и</td>
<td align="LEFT">Й й</td>
<td align="LEFT">К к</td>
<td align="LEFT">Л л</td>
<td align="LEFT">М м</td>
<td align="LEFT">Н н</td>
<td align="LEFT">О о</td>
<td align="LEFT">П п</td>
<td align="LEFT">Р р</td>
<td align="LEFT">С с</td>
<td align="LEFT">Т т</td>
<td align="LEFT">У у</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ф ф</td>
<td align="LEFT">Х х</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ц ц</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ч<br>
ч</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ш ш</td>
<td align="LEFT">Щ щ</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ъ ъ</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ы ы</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ь ь</td>
<td align="LEFT">Э э</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ю ю</td>
<td align="LEFT">Я я</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="middle">Bulgarian<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT" height="32">А а<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Б б<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">В в<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Г г<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Д д<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Е е<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT"><br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ж ж<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">З з<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">И и<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Й й<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">К к<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Л л<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">М м<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Н н<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">О о<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">П п<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Р р<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">С с<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Т т<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">У у<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ф ф<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Х х<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ц ц<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ч<br>
ч<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ш ш<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Щ щ<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ъ ъ<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT"><br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ь ь<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT"><br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Ю ю<br>
</td>
<td align="LEFT">Я я<br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
What difference do you see exactly?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Example: For the Bulgarian city of Montana use: </p>
<p>name=Монтана </p>
<p>language:name=bg </p>
<p>Usually rendering engines default to russian cyrillic, but this
city is in Bulgary. See here the significant difference in
russian rendering (above) and the bulgarian (below) rendering: </p>
<p><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Montana.svg"
class="image"><img alt="Montana.svg"
src="cid:part5.06010309.05040109@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/d/df/Montana.svg/150px-Montana.svg.png
1.5x, /w/images/thumb/d/df/Montana.svg/200px-Montana.svg.png
2x" height="49" width="100"></a> </p>
<h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Rationale"></span> </h2>
</blockquote>
This example is really confusing. You say that Bulgarians write the
name as the second line.<br>
According the Bulgarian's mouth itself, the bottom name is no <a
href="https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0">Bulgarian
for Монтана</a> at all. The top one is.<br>
In fact, the bottom name is just similar to <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_alphabet#cite_note-cursive-2">cursive
Cyrillic</a> in which letter "tee" is written like a "emm" in both
Russian and Bulgarian as well as in other Cyrillic languages. Quite
a mind boggling script to read for latin users BTW.<br>
And indeed, I see on <a href="http://bgmaps.datecs.bg/map/montana">this
Монтана map</a> that they use cursive Cyrillic at low zoom but
plain Cyrillic at high zoom.<br>
Using cursive Cyrillic is not a matter of language but of font.<br>
If you use one of these fonts:<br>
style="font-family:FreeSerif,Georgia,'Times New Roman','Nimbus Roman
No9 L','Century Schoolbook L','Trebuchet MS','URW Bookman L','URW
Chancery L','URW Palladio L',Teams,serif"<br>
you are using cursive Cyrillic when you are using Cyrillic
characters and (funnily) Italic.<br>
<br>
Here is the correspondence between plain and cursive Cyrillic.<br>
<br>
<font face="FreeSerif,Georgia,Times New Roman,Nimbus Roman No9
L,Century Schoolbook L,Trebuchet MS,URW Bookman L,URW Chancery
L,URW Palladio L,Teams,serif">
<table style="padding:0 .5em .2em; border:1px solid #999;
margin:1em 0; " border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1">
<tbody>
<tr style="font-size:large; text-align:center;">
<td>а</td>
<td>б</td>
<td>в</td>
<td>г</td>
<td>д</td>
<td>е</td>
<td>ё</td>
<td>ж</td>
<td>з</td>
<td>и</td>
<td>й</td>
<td>к</td>
<td>л</td>
<td>м</td>
<td>н</td>
<td>о</td>
<td>п</td>
<td>р</td>
<td>с</td>
<td>т</td>
<td>у</td>
<td>ф</td>
<td>х</td>
<td>ц</td>
<td>ч</td>
<td>ш</td>
<td>щ</td>
<td>ъ</td>
<td>ы</td>
<td>ь</td>
<td>э</td>
<td>ю</td>
<td>я</td>
</tr>
<tr style="font-size:large; text-align:center;">
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>а</i> </td>
<td><i>б</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>в</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>г</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>д</i> </td>
<td><i>е</i> </td>
<td><i>ё</i> </td>
<td><i>ж</i> </td>
<td><i>з</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>и</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>й</i> </td>
<td><i>к</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>л</i> </td>
<td><i>м</i> </td>
<td><i>н</i> </td>
<td><i>о</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>п</i> </td>
<td><i>р</i> </td>
<td><i>с</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>т</i> </td>
<td><i>у</i> </td>
<td><i>ф</i> </td>
<td><i>х</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>ц</i> </td>
<td><i>ч</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>ш</i> </td>
<td bgcolor="#BBBBFF"><i>щ</i> </td>
<td><i>ъ</i> </td>
<td><i>ы</i> </td>
<td><i>ь</i> </td>
<td><i>э</i> </td>
<td><i>ю</i> </td>
<td><i>я</i> </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</font> <br>
And here is your example without the need to use a picture.<br>
<br>
<font face="Georgia,FreeSerif,Georgia,Times New Roman,Nimbus Roman
No9 L,Century Schoolbook L,Trebuchet MS,URW Bookman L,URW Chancery
L,URW Palladio L,Teams,serif"><big><b><big><big>Монтана</big> </big>
</b> </big> <i><b><big><big><big><br>
<i>Монтана</i> </big> </big> </big> </b> </i></font><br>
<br>
Reply to this message and toggle the Italic format of one of the
above lines to see it flip between normal and cursive.<br>
Using cursive in Cyrillic is like using italic in latin.<br>
And it seems they would sometimes use it in a map and sometimes not.<br>
Like on <a href="http://bgmaps.datecs.bg/map/montana">this Монтана
map</a> at low zoom or at high zoom.<br>
<br>
In fact, what Bulgarian also uses is the Latin alphabet (Sofia
Софиа), just like Serbian does.<br>
For a country like Kurdistan for example, there are three scripts:
Latin, Cyrillic and Arabian.<br>
Similarly many Asian countries use several <b>scripts</b> for <b>the
same language</b> .<br>
Even Chinese can use pinyin, Japanese Romaji, Latin-like characters
etc.<br>
<br>
But which values to use for *:language=* for those different
renderings of the same language is not clear.<br>
I guess that BCP-47 should be used to distinguish them. But it's
not explained how a mapper finds which to use.<br>
<br>
And hence that BCP-47 should be used in name:?=* too. It should be
said !!!<br>
<br>
I have looked at the names in Sofia. They are just either Bulgarian
or English or International.<br>
They do not seem to know how to code the Latin alphabet<br>
They do not know how "to respect their cultural heritage" !!!<br>
<br>
I hope this will help you.<br>
<br>
Cheers <br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
BTW: You probably mean "add language information to most instances
of some key" and not "add language information to most objects and
keys".<br>
<br>
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