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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>The term “Big-box store” is not one I’ve ever heard used in Australia, and is not something that I would immediately associated with something like Costco. Given that the existing tag is already in widespread (and largely correct) usage and possibly specifically supported by existing software, I don’t really see a good reason for changing it to something else just for the heck of it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I think all that should be needed is to amend the documentation to make it clear that it is only for places that are “</span>Wholesale/warehouse club or cash and carry - a store that sells items in bulk<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>” (I would leave out the “to retailers”, any access limitations should be described by different tags) and not “actual” wholesalers (which should use the wholesale=* tag), and then correct any possibly wrongly tagged data that already exist.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Thorsten<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Johnparis [mailto:okosm@johnfreed.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 7 March 2018 16:10<br><b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Must agree with Thorsten and Stefano.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The proposal referenced by Martin is just that: a proposal. From 2011-12. Never approved.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The wiki page (created 2015) makes clear that the actual key, in use, refers to shops like Costco, which btw is the same in the US as the Australian version. See also <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features</a> (which alludes to the Costco-style shop).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Perhaps the (never approved) proposal page should make clear that (a) it was not approved, (b) it is not in use. And (c) it should refer to the actual wiki page.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Alternatively, this type of store is sometimes called a "big box" retailer in the US. I would not oppose a shop=big_box alternative to supplant shop=wholesale. Or even hypermarket (the French term is hypermarché) or superstore. But in any case there is always going to be some confusion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I would agree that a wholesaler's office and/or warehouse should not use this tag (unless of course the warehouse also sells on site to the general public or its membership, in which case it is indeed a shop).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I glanced at the 1000 or so existing uses of the tag, and a large number seem to have names suggesting correct usage (Costco, Sam's Warehouse, xxx Cash & Carry, etc.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So it seems to me that the problem is not the tag, but rather the proposal page that Martin cited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 PM, <<a href="mailto:osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.id.au" target="_blank">osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.id.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Here in Australia, I would consider “Costco” to be a “shop”. And they name themselves as “Costco Wholesale”. While they do require a membership, that membership is open to anyone without restrictions. Except for the need of a membership (which they happily sell you for 60 bucks the first time you come buy) there is no appreciable difference between shopping at Costco or any other retailer. (And people use the term shopping or grocery shopping in relation to going to Costco.)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I personally think that “shop=wholesale” is a reasonable tag for Costcos in Australia (and I think the same applies in the US, membership open to anyone without restrictions. Same for Sam’s Club and others I think).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Thorsten</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:<a href="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com" target="_blank">dieterdreist@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 7 March 2018 03:40<br><b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>2018-02-28 15:49 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes <<a href="mailto:phil@trigpoint.me.uk" target="_blank">phil@trigpoint.me.uk</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Wholesale primarily sells to trade customers, rather than retail. <br><br>Many will refuse to sell to normal retail customers.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>indeed. Now, this conflict doesn't seem to interest many people, besides you there was only one commenter here. Any more opinions how to handle it? Would we better "kick out" wholesale from shop or change the definition for shop? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Martin<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tagging mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>