<div dir="ltr">I only saw the discussion in this thread, came to the conclusion I (and probably many other Dutch and German speakers) had interpreted the meaning completely wrong.<div><br></div><div>The tag is indeed meaningless, as it stands. Especially for public transport, where it really doesn't matter. We're describing itineraries. For hiking/cycling it's a misnomer. So it would be good to phase it out.<br><div><br></div><div>What I'm trying to accomplish, while we're doing that is to not only replace it with circular_route, to indicate intent, but to also add a tag that validators can use to perform validation.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Jo</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2018-05-28 9:54 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank">voschix@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Have you seen the discussion on the roundtrip tag [1]?</div><div>It looks as if there are two different roundtrip concepts in use:</div><div>For hiking or cycling routes it means that the route you follow brings you back to the starting point with the outwards route and the return route (mostly) different.</div><div>in a traffic service round trip is often used to indicate a service "there and back"</div><div>"roundtrip=yes|no" is an unfortunate choice of key as it has wo meanings, mainly ccording to which side of the Atlantic Ocean you are. but its in use about 25k times.</div><div> It might have been better to have something like "loop=yes|no" for hiking and cycling routes.</div><div>For bus|underground|tram lines it might have been better to use something like "geometry=linear|circular|..." for transportation routes.<br></div><div><br></div><div>[1] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip</a><br></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 28 May 2018 at 08:52, Jo <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:winfixit@gmail.com" target="_blank">winfixit@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">From what I gathered during this discussion, roundtrip is mostly understood and used wrongly by mappers.<div><br></div><div>It's also not something about the route, but rather about a passenger who buys a ticket to come back the same way the same day/weekend and paying the return fare on the same ticket (aller/retour - heen- en terug).</div><div><br></div><div>So I went and downloaded all objects tagged with roundtrip. The one I changed needed major clean up in its members anyway.</div><div><br></div><div>So how do we get from a meaningless tag (roundtrip) to something that actually has meaning for itineraries?</div><div><br></div><div>I think that on the one hand we need a tag to describe what the user can expect (get back to approximate initial position) and on the other hand it would be nice (for validation purposes) to know if the ways in the relation are supposed to form a closed loop.</div><div><br></div><div>hence:</div><div>circular_route=yes</div><div>closed_loop=no</div><div><br></div><div>for that particular bus route.</div><div><br></div><div>Polyglot</div></div><div class="m_-818214505250285344HOEnZb"><div class="m_-818214505250285344h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2018-05-28 7:47 GMT+02:00 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.id.au" target="_blank">osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.i<wbr>d.au</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-AU"><div class="m_-818214505250285344m_-6688830606141406062m_-6855221594099931236WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The real question, which as far as I can tell you haven’t answered, is: Does that same vehicle, after completing its route, start at the beginning of the same route again?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Based on your description, the route as mapped is A1->B->C->D->E->A2.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Can I get on at E, stay on the vehicle, and get off at B? (In which case I would expect that after finishing at A2, the vehicle goes to A1, and you can remain on board during that time. A2 may be (but doesn’t have to) an “exit only” and A1 and “entry only” stop).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If yes, then it is roundtrip=yes. And you shouldn’t just remove an existing tag that actually applies.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If no, then the roundtrip=yes is wrong and should be removed.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> Jo <<a href="mailto:winfixit@gmail.com" target="_blank">winfixit@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, 28 May 2018 15:13<span><br><b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] roundtrip<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">An example of a (bus) route that goes out and comes back to the same location. It's not circle shaped at all, but that shouldn't matter for circular route.<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class="m_-818214505250285344m_-6688830606141406062h5"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I removed roundtrip=yes and replaced it with<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">circular_route=yes<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">closed_loop=no<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">If the last way wouldn't be in there, closed_loop would be yes. But the first and the last bus stops are not exactly opposite one another.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Jo<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div><div><div class="m_-818214505250285344m_-6688830606141406062h5"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">2018-05-27 6:22 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson <<a href="mailto:baloo@ursamundi.org" target="_blank">baloo@ursamundi.org</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Peter Elderson <<a href="mailto:pelderson@gmail.com" target="_blank">pelderson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class="MsoNormal">I wish you a happy trip on that bus, hope it has toilets and a tolerable coffee machine<u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Oh, you sweet, summer child. Someone's never tried to take a suburban route in the US, even in a "transit oriented" American city... <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Tagging mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.or<wbr>g/listinfo/tagging</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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