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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">AFAIK Transmodel uses these terms:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">- Linear: A simple linear path from an origin stop to a destination stop. It may be exactly symmetric i.e. be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">traversed to matching stop pairs in the outbound and inbound direction. Or asymmetric – with differences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">in the stop sequences in each direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">- Circular : A path that returns to the origin stop as the destination. It then may continue round repeatedly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">There may be symmetric or asymmetric services in the clockwise or anticlockwise direction. The<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">destinations shown for such routes may vary along the way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">- Lollipop: A path that goes round a loop one way at the outbound destination end and then returns past<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">the same stops on the inbound path.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">- Cloverleaf: A path that returns repeatedly to the same stop.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">- Branching: Alternate paths that go one or other alternative way at either end of the journey.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">- Eye: Alternate paths that go one or other alternative way round an intermediate section of the route.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> Warin [mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com]
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<b>Sent:</b> mandag 28. mai 2018 11.04<br>
<b>To:</b> tagging@openstreetmap.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] roundtrip<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't think 'circular' is the best word... implies round .. and at least some are not round.
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continuous_route?<br>
looped_route? <br>
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On 28/05/18 18:24, Peter Elderson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think for waymarked circular trails the UK English meaning is not too far off. The waymarks and often available map/leaflet/booklet/description do indeed bring you back to the starting point. (Remember the walking_bus discussion?)
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Having said that, I think circular_route is more to-the-point, it targets the route itself instead of the service. I have asked the Dutch community for input on retagging roundtrip=yes (for foot/hiking/cycling routes) to circular_route=yes,
and using closed_loop=yes for the purpose of validation.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2018-05-28 10:01 GMT+02:00 Jo <<a href="mailto:winfixit@gmail.com" target="_blank">winfixit@gmail.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I only saw the discussion in this thread, came to the conclusion I (and probably many other Dutch and German speakers) had interpreted the meaning completely wrong.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The tag is indeed meaningless, as it stands. Especially for public transport, where it really doesn't matter. We're describing itineraries. For hiking/cycling it's a misnomer. So it would be good to phase it out.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">What I'm trying to accomplish, while we're doing that is to not only replace it with circular_route, to indicate intent, but to also add a tag that validators can use to perform validation.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Jo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2018-05-28 9:54 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt <<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank">voschix@gmail.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Have you seen the discussion on the roundtrip tag [1]?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It looks as if there are two different roundtrip concepts in use:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">For hiking or cycling routes it means that the route you follow brings you back to the starting point with the outwards route and the return route (mostly) different.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">in a traffic service round trip is often used to indicate a service "there and back"<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"roundtrip=yes|no" is an unfortunate choice of key as it has wo meanings, mainly ccording to which side of the Atlantic Ocean you are. but its in use about 25k times.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It might have been better to have something like "loop=yes|no" for hiking and cycling routes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">For bus|underground|tram lines it might have been better to use something like "geometry=linear|circular|..." for transportation routes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">[1] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip" target="_blank">
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 28 May 2018 at 08:52, Jo <<a href="mailto:winfixit@gmail.com" target="_blank">winfixit@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">From what I gathered during this discussion, roundtrip is mostly understood and used wrongly by mappers.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It's also not something about the route, but rather about a passenger who buys a ticket to come back the same way the same day/weekend and paying the return fare on the same ticket (aller/retour - heen- en terug).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So I went and downloaded all objects tagged with roundtrip. The one I changed needed major clean up in its members anyway.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So how do we get from a meaningless tag (roundtrip) to something that actually has meaning for itineraries?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think that on the one hand we need a tag to describe what the user can expect (get back to approximate initial position) and on the other hand it would be nice (for validation purposes) to know if the ways in the relation are supposed
to form a closed loop.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">hence:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">circular_route=yes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">closed_loop=no<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">for that particular bus route.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Polyglot<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2018-05-28 7:47 GMT+02:00 <<a href="mailto:osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.id.au" target="_blank">osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.id.au</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The real question, which as far as I can tell you haven’t answered, is: Does that same vehicle, after
completing its route, start at the beginning of the same route again?</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Based on your description, the route as mapped is A1->B->C->D->E->A2.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Can I get on at E, stay on the vehicle, and get off at B? (In which case I would expect that after finishing
at A2, the vehicle goes to A1, and you can remain on board during that time. A2 may be (but doesn’t have to) an “exit only” and A1 and “entry only” stop).</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If yes, then it is roundtrip=yes. And you shouldn’t just remove an existing tag that actually applies.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If no, then the roundtrip=yes is wrong and should be removed.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Jo
<<a href="mailto:winfixit@gmail.com" target="_blank">winfixit@gmail.com</a>> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 28 May 2018 15:13<br>
<b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] roundtrip</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">An example of a (bus) route that goes out and comes back to the same location. It's not circle shaped at all, but that shouldn't matter for circular route.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">I removed roundtrip=yes and replaced it with<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">circular_route=yes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">closed_loop=no<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">If the last way wouldn't be in there, closed_loop would be yes. But the first and the last bus stops are not exactly opposite one another.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">Jo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">2018-05-27 6:22 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson <<a href="mailto:baloo@ursamundi.org" target="_blank">baloo@ursamundi.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Peter Elderson <<a href="mailto:pelderson@gmail.com" target="_blank">pelderson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">I wish you a happy trip on that bus, hope it has toilets and a tolerable coffee machine<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU">Oh, you sweet, summer child. Someone's never tried to take a suburban route in the US, even in a "transit oriented" American city... <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-AU"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-AU"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Vr gr Peter Elderson<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Tagging mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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