<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /></head><body style='font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif'>
<p>Joseph, I have to admit I am getting a bit lost as to what you are trying to define with this proposal. Whatever tagging we end up with, who is the target audience? What are the use cases? Is it an aid to interpreting and pronouncing the contents of the "name" tag? Is it a (strong) hint to mappers about how to synthesize multilingual labels? Is it documenting the official languages, or the popular spoken languages, or what?</p>
<p>Take Brussels for example. Officially bilingual for political reasons, in practice large parts are essentially French-only. Composite street names can be nl - fr or fr - nl. Can I suggest we work through Belgium as a case study, and when there is a proposal to suit Belgium, we then cross-check with e.g. Switzerland, Morocco, Spain or whatever?</p>
<div> </div>
<p><br /></p>
<p>On 2018-09-15 17:15, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><!-- html ignored --><!-- head ignored --><!-- meta ignored -->
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Re: "<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a new concept to OSM."</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;"> </span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span style="caret-color: #000000;">In Brussels they would actually like to be able to display the two languages neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think a display order specification is necessary. That information is already in the default "name=*" tag</span></span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span style="caret-color: #000000;"> </span></span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span style="caret-color: #000000;">"</span></span><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">Is it intended to be only for street names? If so, highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or does everything that can have a name need to fit in with this?"</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span style="caret-color: #000000;">Not only streets. Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues</span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<br />
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale <<a href="mailto:colin.smale@xs4all.nl">colin.smale@xs4all.nl</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;">
<p>On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Re: "<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">A default should not require multiple values! It is the single value to be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need multiple defaults, see my comment above about different contexts."</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;"> </span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be displayed together as the default language setting, if so desired. If you check out the <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Multilingual Names wiki page</a>, there are places where people choose to standardize the default name=* be a combination of two languages or two encodings; eg fr + nl in Brussels, or Arabic + French in Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the folks in Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be the choice of specifying two (or 3) languages, to fit with their current preference. </span></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a new concept to OSM.</span></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is used, just trying to make it more useful by tagging what language is actually being used in the value for the name key. And I suspect</span><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;"> there may be more communities that will choose this option, to encourage displaying names both in the local langauge and in the official or national language.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">So your idea is only for multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste. Combine this with "name:language=fr" in Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in Flanders, "name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and "name:language=fr;nl" in Brussels?</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">Is it intended to be only for street names? If so, highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or does everything that can have a name need to fit in with this?</span></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br /> Tagging mailing list<br /> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br /> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a></blockquote>
</div>
<br />
<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">_______________________________________________<br /> Tagging mailing list<br /> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br /> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a></div>
</blockquote>
</body></html>