<div dir="ltr">Colin, the theread title is now incorrect. I no longer think it is feasible to map the boundaries of languages. <div><br></div><div>The proposal will just seek to document the format of default name=* tags.</div><div>This will also provide information about the language used within in a particular administrative boundary, as a side-benefit</div><div><br></div><div>I've been considering Brussels as a test-case, since they have already made up their own tags and boundaries ( default_language=fr for example )</div><div><br></div><div>I've tried to contact one of the people who set up the language areas in Belgium to get their opinion.</div><div><br></div><div>Warin: </div><div>I live in New Guinea, but on the Indonesian side.</div><div>While you may not see these languages as worth your time as a mapper, they matter to the people here.</div><div>And the local langauges are used for all the local names for geographic features, so they are getting into the OSM database, little by little.</div><div>If you don't live on one of these linguistic diversity hotspots it should be much easier to tag just the proper admin boundary, even in Belgium</div><div>Joseph</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 6:56 AM Warin <<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="m_3737103520842068008moz-cite-prefix">On 16/09/18 01:37, Colin Smale wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <p>Joseph, I have to admit I am getting a bit lost as to what you
        are trying to define with this proposal. Whatever tagging we end
        up with, who is the target audience? What are the use cases? Is
        it an aid to interpreting and pronouncing the contents of the
        "name" tag? Is it a (strong) hint to mappers about how to
        synthesize multilingual labels? Is it documenting the official
        languages, or the popular spoken languages, or what?</p>
      <p>Take Brussels for example. Officially bilingual for political
        reasons, in practice large parts are essentially French-only.
        Composite street names can be nl - fr or fr - nl. Can I suggest
        we work through Belgium as a case study, and when there is a
        proposal to suit Belgium, we then cross-check with e.g.
        Switzerland, Morocco, Spain or whatever?</p>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    If you want an extreme case then Papua New Guinea has over 820
    languages.. all in one country. <br>
    They have 3 official languages, usage varies depending on what you
    are. <br>
    Documenting them would also be a challenge. <br>
    The amount of work vs the people who will use the data? <br>
    For PNG I don't see the work = the benefit. <br>
    <a class="m_3737103520842068008moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea#Languages" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea#Languages</a><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div> </div>
      <p><br>
      </p>
      <p>On 2018-09-15 17:15, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</p>
      <blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">Re: "<span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">How about
                "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible
                there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify
                the order, unless you define the list of languages to be
                an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a new concept to
                OSM."</span></div>
            <div dir="ltr"><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px"> </span></div>
            <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span>In Brussels they would
                  actually like to be able to display the two languages
                  neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think
                  a display order specification is necessary. That
                  information is already in the default "name=*" tag</span></span></div>
            <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span> </span></span></div>
            <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span>"</span></span><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">Is it intended to be only for
                street names? If so, highway:name:language=* might be
                required to make that clear. Or does everything that can
                have a name need to fit in with this?"</span></div>
            <div> </div>
            <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span>Not only streets.
                  Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues</span></span></div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr">On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale
            <<a href="mailto:colin.smale@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">colin.smale@xs4all.nl</a>>
            wrote:</div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
              <p>On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</p>
              <blockquote style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div dir="ltr">Re: "<span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">A default
                          should not require multiple values! It is the
                          single value to be used in the absence of an
                          explicit value. If you think you need multiple
                          defaults, see my comment above about different
                          contexts."</span></div>
                      <div dir="ltr"><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px"> </span></div>
                      <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">The idea is to allow a
                          community to choose 2 languages to be
                          displayed together as the default language
                          setting, if so desired. If you check out the <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Multilingual Names
                            wiki page</a>, there are places where people
                          choose to standardize the default name=* be a
                          combination of two languages or two encodings;
                          eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or Arabic + French in
                          Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the
                          folks in Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be
                          the choice of specifying two (or 3) languages,
                          to fit with their current preference. </span></div>
                      <div> </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">How about
                        "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion
                        possible there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl"
                        would not specify the order, unless you define
                        the list of languages to be an ordered list,
                        which AFAIK would be a new concept to OSM.</span></div>
                    <div> </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">I'm not trying to
                          change the way the default name=* tag is used,
                          just trying to make it more useful by tagging
                          what language is actually being used in the
                          value for the name key. And I suspect</span><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px"> there may be more
                          communities that will choose this option, to
                          encourage displaying names both in the local
                          langauge and in the official or national
                          language.</span></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">So your idea is only for
                        multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste.
                        Combine this with "name:language=fr" in
                        Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in Flanders,
                        "name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and
                        "name:language=fr;nl" in Brussels?</span></div>
                    <div> </div>
                    <div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">Is it intended to be only
                        for street names? If so, highway:name:language=*
                        might be required to make that clear. Or does
                        everything that can have a name need to fit in
                        with this?</span></div>
                    <div> </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            Tagging mailing list<br>
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            <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a></blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="m_3737103520842068008pre" style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family:monospace">_______________________________________________<br>
          Tagging mailing list<br>
          <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
          <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a></div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
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      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="m_3737103520842068008moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_3737103520842068008moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote></div>