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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/09/18 01:37, Colin Smale wrote:<br>
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<p>Joseph, I have to admit I am getting a bit lost as to what you
are trying to define with this proposal. Whatever tagging we end
up with, who is the target audience? What are the use cases? Is
it an aid to interpreting and pronouncing the contents of the
"name" tag? Is it a (strong) hint to mappers about how to
synthesize multilingual labels? Is it documenting the official
languages, or the popular spoken languages, or what?</p>
<p>Take Brussels for example. Officially bilingual for political
reasons, in practice large parts are essentially French-only.
Composite street names can be nl - fr or fr - nl. Can I suggest
we work through Belgium as a case study, and when there is a
proposal to suit Belgium, we then cross-check with e.g.
Switzerland, Morocco, Spain or whatever?</p>
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If you want an extreme case then Papua New Guinea has over 820
languages.. all in one country. <br>
They have 3 official languages, usage varies depending on what you
are. <br>
Documenting them would also be a challenge. <br>
The amount of work vs the people who will use the data? <br>
For PNG I don't see the work = the benefit. <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea#Languages">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea#Languages</a><br>
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<p>On 2018-09-15 17:15, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Re: "<span style="color: #000000;
font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;">How about
"name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible
there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify
the order, unless you define the list of languages to be
an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a new concept to
OSM."</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;"> </span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,
Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span
style="caret-color: #000000;">In Brussels they would
actually like to be able to display the two languages
neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think
a display order specification is necessary. That
information is already in the default "name=*" tag</span></span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,
Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span
style="caret-color: #000000;"> </span></span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,
Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span
style="caret-color: #000000;">"</span></span><span
style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;">Is it intended to be only for
street names? If so, highway:name:language=* might be
required to make that clear. Or does everything that can
have a name need to fit in with this?"</span></div>
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<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana,
Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span
style="caret-color: #000000;">Not only streets.
Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues</span></span></div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale
<<a href="mailto:colin.smale@xs4all.nl"
moz-do-not-send="true">colin.smale@xs4all.nl</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<p>On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Re: "<span style="color: #000000;
font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;
font-size: 13.333333015441895px;">A default
should not require multiple values! It is the
single value to be used in the absence of an
explicit value. If you think you need multiple
defaults, see my comment above about different
contexts."</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="color: #000000;
font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;
font-size: 13.333333015441895px;"> </span></div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;">The idea is to allow a
community to choose 2 languages to be
displayed together as the default language
setting, if so desired. If you check out the <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">Multilingual Names
wiki page</a>, there are places where people
choose to standardize the default name=* be a
combination of two languages or two encodings;
eg fr + nl in Brussels, or Arabic + French in
Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the
folks in Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be
the choice of specifying two (or 3) languages,
to fit with their current preference. </span></div>
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<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;">How about
"name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion
possible there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl"
would not specify the order, unless you define
the list of languages to be an ordered list,
which AFAIK would be a new concept to OSM.</span></div>
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<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;">I'm not trying to
change the way the default name=* tag is used,
just trying to make it more useful by tagging
what language is actually being used in the
value for the name key. And I suspect</span><span
style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;"> there may be more
communities that will choose this option, to
encourage displaying names both in the local
langauge and in the official or national
language.</span></div>
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<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;">So your idea is only for
multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste.
Combine this with "name:language=fr" in
Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in Flanders,
"name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and
"name:language=fr;nl" in Brussels?</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="color: #000000; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.333333015441895px;">Is it intended to be only
for street names? If so, highway:name:language=*
might be required to make that clear. Or does
everything that can have a name need to fit in
with this?</span></div>
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