<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com" class="">joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">shop=food </span></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class="">+ cuisine=local/polish.</blockquote></div></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-1</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">shop=food is called a market. we have that already. cuisine=* is for restaurants and other non-shop places. </div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">amenity=fast_food</div><div class="">fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only, etc) </div><div class="">cuisine=perogi</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">TL;DR: </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. ** </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts the food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is selling you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think it is a shop. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses of shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key, and most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a take-n-bake pizza shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet uncooked perogis or Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop selling cooked pizza. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it (amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten now” that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket, butcher shop) or bulk (shop=ice cream) will solve both of the above issues. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this issue will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food and immense tagging pollution through confusion. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">~~~~~~~~~~~~~</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag, and not to mix shop=* and cuisine for the job. We have have fast food, restaurant, pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a sub-tag of one of those to be “take-n-bake” type shop. </div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items, otherwise you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging for an ice cream shop:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=ice_cream" class="">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">and now there is</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""> shop=ice_cream "<span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#222222" face="sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">For places selling ice cream to take home</span><span style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-size: 14px;" class="">”</span><span style="font-size: 14px;" class=""> </span></font></span></div><div style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><font color="#222222" face="sans-serif" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-size: 14px;" class=""><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dice_cream" class="">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dice_cream</a></span></font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">or </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where ice cream drinks are sold?) </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">or </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for amenity=ice_cream)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people sit down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream treats at booths and tables. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” - that is because it *is* a type of restaurant.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream restaturant. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t need to define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely the “cuisine” offered. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in a mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces amenity=ice_cream)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced ice cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at home (eg: brewing_supply). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages" class="">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">****all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you ingredients to make other things.**** </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Places where we sell prepared food to sit and eat is a restaurant. the coffee shop sells bagged coffee and brewing machines as it’s primary purpose - not brewed coffee drinks like a cafe. the bread shops we have in Japan would easily be amenity=fast_food + cuisine=bread - they are full of prepared food for quick meals or snacks - not shelves full of bread loaves or bags of rolls to make dinner with. There are a couple, but it’s not the focus of the place. I consider this an error in using the shop=key. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I do not want this error to spread via a generic shop=food tag. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">*We made the distinction between restaurant and fast food for this very reason.* shop=* shouldn't be involved. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A butcher shop isn't cuisine=meat for this reason - they are shops. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I bring up ice cream not because I care so much about it - but it is a good example of tagging that that cannot be applied to other types, and can be fixed and be much more flexible using generic tags. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We should create tags describe the type of *business*, as this greatly affects how the customer views the business. This also makes it impossible to tag actual “shops” - a “meat shop" (butcher) is possible because we use other tags to define where meat is consumed as food. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are some types of places where putting the type of "food" in the cuisine= tag would be silly -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- a tea shop sells loose tea in bags and other items for brewing tea, it is not a cafe.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- a honey shop sells jars of honey and various derived products, it is not “prepared food” nor a cafe selling drinks made with honey. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">These are appropriate to be a shop=* tag (shop=tea, shop=honey). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This separates it from cuisine=* - because that is for places that serve ready to eat food. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We already have vends= and produces= and other similar tags. if you want to use an existing one or make a new one to use with a [[ shop=[thing] + foo=[thing type] ]] tag scheme, then =food is a bad value, and paring it with cuisine=* is worse, as it mixes the idea of food and cuisine into the shop key, which will lead to confusion and problems. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Javbw </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></body></html>