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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24/11/18 21:29, Sergio Manzi wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
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<p>Hello Warin,</p>
<p>I'm afraid we're opening a can of worms here, but you're right:
something needs to be fixed, and here below I'm trying to
contribute with some considerations...</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Thanks... rather than 'fixed', guided might be a better term.
'Type' just provides for too much freedom in the responses. <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The Wiki [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna">1</a>]
gives a very good definition of what an antenna is: an "<i>interface
between radio waves and electrical signals in a transmission
line</i>". <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well it is a better attempt. But needs improvement (I can say that
as I wrote it :) ) "<i>interface between radio waves <b>in free
space </b>and electrical signals in a transmission line</i>".<br>
Consider a wave guide - the field there could be described by some
as a radio wave .. but not in free space. And of course a wave guide
is a transmission line. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p> </p>
<p>That interface can work in either or both directions:</p>
<ul>
<li><b>receiving </b>(<i>RX, radio waves to electrical signal</i>),
like the TV antenna on the roof of an house or a
radio-telescope.</li>
<li><b>transmitting </b>(<i>TX, electrical signal to radio
waves</i>), like the broadcasting antenna of a commercial TV
or the transmitting antenna of a VOR radio direction
navigation system.<br>
</li>
<li><b>receiving/transmitting</b> (RX/TX, <i>both directions</i>),
like those on the tower of a mobile telephone cell or a radar.<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Not all antennas are <b>communication antennas</b>:
communication antennas are for conveying information ("meaning")
from one party to another (<i>and I would add "in a
bidirectional way" or we should call it a "<b>broadcasting
antenna</b>", but I'm not totally sure about this latter
specification</i>). Some other kind of non-communication
antenna: the radio-telescope, the VOR, the radar.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Yep. Though communications can be one way e.g. a TV signal conveys
information, sometimes useful like a weather forecast. But I am
reluctant to put 'communication' down as a value - covers too many
things. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p> </p>
<p>For the above I think an <b>antenna:usage=*</b> tag could be a
correct tag, with values like: communication, broadcasting,
radio-telescope, navigation, radar, measurement, ham_radio (<i>there
is not such a thing as an "ham radio" antenna type, per se:
hams make uses of a lot of different antenna types</i>).<br>
</p>
<p>As for the "type" of antennas, <b>there are </b><b>a lot</b>:
monopole, dipole, mast radiator, whip, Yagi, Log-periodic,
random wire, loop, quad, rhombic, helical, beverage, ground
plane, collinear, traveling wave, curtain, horn, dish, etc.,
etc. <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Biconical, biconilog, patch ... heaps of them. Some even describe
the matching .. a 'Roberts Dipole' for example. A 'quad' to me just
says 4 .. 4 of what? Helicals, bow ties, dipoles .. A 'phased array'
also does not say what the driving antennas are nor the number of
them. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p> </p>
Furthermore there are some inaccuracies in the above (<i>a "dish"
antenna is actually </i><i>a system</i><i> built from two
components: a reflector, the dish, and the true antenna located
in the focus of the dish reflector</i>) and possible
complications (<i>you can have an array of antennas, like the
array of four helical antennas pictured in the wiki page</i>). </blockquote>
<br>
A 'ground plane' is also a system of at least 2 components. And the
feed to the dish can be in several different locations... <br>
<br>
antenna:reflector=dish/ground_plane/* ? <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p>I'm really unsure if it is worth to specify antenna types.
Beside, I think most mappers will be unable to correctly
identify antenna types.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Unfortunately some mappers want to put these things down .. so
provision for that has to be made to avoid confusion.<br>
<br>
Someone has also included polarisation in the types value .. so that
needs to be addressed too,
antenna:polarisation=vertical/horizontal/circular/circular_clockwise/circular_anticlockwise
should do.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p> </p>
<p>A radom<u><b>e</b></u> <b>is not an antenna</b>, but the
weatherproof enclosure that protect an antenna.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Sigh. Yep. But that is what mappers see and want to put down. Don't
know what to do with it yet. Similar to the dish problem, they see
the dish and want to put that down without going into the feed
detail or the true antenna. Some of the dishes are covered too so it
will not be easy to have mappers detail more than 'dish'. <br>
<br>
antenna:enclosure=radome/* ?<br>
Some microwave repeater antennas get covers - usually for snow
conditions. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p> </p>
<p>In the wiki there is a lot of talking (<i>and some proposed
tags</i>) about "transponders", but the term is used in an
absolutely inaccurate and wrong meaning: a transponder is "<i>is
a device that, upon receiving a signal, emits </i><u><i>a
different signal in response</i></u>" [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder">2</a>]. What
in the wiki is called a transponder can probably be more
accurately described as a "repeater" [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeater">3</a>].
Unhappily man_made=communications_transponder is already in use
for absolutely wrong features, as in [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2199511457#map=19/44.98542/9.01678">4</a>]
where it it is used to tag a cell tower.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yep. Non experts tagging things as well as they know how. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fa37b222-0315-ee73-ad69-5d92ff8990d6@smz.it">
<p> </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Enough, for now, but of course I'm open to the discussion and
I'm ready to contribute for what I can (<i>I'm not an expert in
the field but</i> <i>I am a former radio amateur and a former
telephone company's CTO</i>).</p>
<p>Cheers!</p>
<p>Sergio<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna</a><br>
[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder</a><br>
[3] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeater"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeater</a><br>
[4] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2199511457#map=19/44.98542/9.01678"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2199511457#map=19/44.98542/9.01678</a><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018-11-24 02:47, Warin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7e2d2d60-144f-9e2e-376c-0aef86c2760b@gmail.com">
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charset=utf-8">
<p><tt>Hi,</tt></p>
<p><tt>I was looking at the wiki for antennas <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna</a></tt></p>
<p><tt><br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>I made some additions to the definition and added some
photos etc. <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further
define what the antenna is.</tt></p>
<p><tt><br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>Unfortunately on the German wiki there is the use of
antenna:type .. with a confusing set of values. <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt> (eg communication, special, </tt><tt dir="ltr"
class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6">parabolic_satellit,
</tt><tt><tt dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6">parabolic_satellit_uplink</tt>,
radar) <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt><br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>These appear to be the use of the antenna. <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>Perhaps this could be
antenna:use=radio/TV/radar/wifi/cell_phone</tt></p>
<p><tt>I don't think 'communication' is a good tag - any antenna
performs the function of communication. <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>Similar for satellite (note last 'e' for British
English), that might be all you can tell from the
configuration and direction of the antenna but does not
define its use. <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt><br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>Then the 'type' of antenna .. better described as
antenna:configuration ?</tt></p>
<p><tt>Values could be monopole, dipole, yagi, dish ... yes dish
will have sub tags for the feed system etc. <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt><br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>Broad thoughts? <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>Not after detail at this stage but antenna:type to others
such as;</tt></p>
<p><tt> antenna:use? <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>antenna:configuration? <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt>antenna:mode=tx/rx/2way for the direction of
communication? <br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt><br>
</tt></p>
<p><tt><br>
</tt></p>
<p><br>
</p>
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