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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I qutoe for the proposal page <br>
On 13/12/18 10:44, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPg0KMJ7SEin-JiROtOSVd6jtReWcR2QvwzYWGrM8qMneA@mail.gmail.com">These
comments on the proposal are still valid issues:
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</blockquote>
Changes have been made to address them. <br>
Should these changes be duplicated on the comments page too??
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPg0KMJ7SEin-JiROtOSVd6jtReWcR2QvwzYWGrM8qMneA@mail.gmail.com"><br>
“‘at least 90% of the time’ is impossible to be determined by
mappers and is an arbritrary value. </blockquote>
Present page reads<br>
<i>The majority of the time, say at least 90% of the time, the water
is not present.</i><br>
<br>
An attempt to define 'majority' for those that think the term is not
objective. Possibly the term 'majority' should be further developed
.. probably 'vast majority' would be better. If you like it is the
reverse of 'seldom' .. that could be 'defined' as 'say no more that
10% of the time'??? Humm I may change to 'seldom'. <br>
<br>
When you say 'impossible to determine' .. you mean that no one ever
can determine it? Yet the term exists and is in use so people can
determine it. <br>
If you mean that a mapper lacks the information, then they should
not use the tag!!! Those mappers who know that it is ephemeral
should not be denied the use of the tag because some, possibly most,
lack that information. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPg0KMJ7SEin-JiROtOSVd6jtReWcR2QvwzYWGrM8qMneA@mail.gmail.com"><br>
“ephemeral=dry_season has no obvious meaning (is it tagging that
waterways is ephemeral during dry season? Or is it tagging that
waterway is ephemeral and may flow only during dry season”</blockquote>
<br>
The page gives an example <br>
<i><tt dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><bdi
style="white-space:nowrap"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:ephemeral&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Key:ephemeral (page does not exist)">ephemeral</a></bdi>=<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:ephemeral%3Dwinter&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Tag:ephemeral=winter (page does not exist)"><bdi>winter</bdi></a></tt></i><i>
Water seldom be here and only for a short duration and only in
winter. It would be rare to have more than one water presence
during the season.</i><br>
<br>
Substitute dry season for winter and you have an answer? <br>
<br>
The page then goes on to say <br>
<i><tt dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><bdi
style="white-space:nowrap"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:ephemeral&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Key:ephemeral (page does not exist)">ephemeral</a></bdi>=<bdi>spring/summer/autumn/winter/wet_season/dry_season/...</bdi></tt></i><i>
describes exact season (if possible) when a feature can be
ephemeral.</i><br>
<i>Implies </i><i><tt dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><bdi
style="white-space:nowrap"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:ephemeral&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Key:ephemeral (page does not exist)">ephemeral</a></bdi>=<bdi>yes</bdi></tt></i><i>
for that season. Note safest to use </i><i><tt dir="ltr"
class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><bdi
style="white-space:nowrap"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:ephemeral&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Key:ephemeral (page does not exist)">ephemeral</a></bdi>=<bdi>yes</bdi></tt></i><i>
as this avoids difficulties of determining the season.
</i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPg0KMJ7SEin-JiROtOSVd6jtReWcR2QvwzYWGrM8qMneA@mail.gmail.com"><br>
“the proposed values do not seem right (ephemeral=dry_season is
certainly impossible)”</blockquote>
<br>
The page states <br>
<i>Note that seasonal=dry_season is in use (even if by error or
maybe it is in use on non-water features e.g. roads, some 2,900
uses of it), so it has not been excluded here as there might, just
possibly, be one of them out in the real world. There is also the
possibility that the 'dry_season' is a relative term and it could
have random rain?</i><br>
Maybe a definition of dry_season is that it does not rain at all ..
yet where is that documented that no rain can fall? Another
definition of dry_season could be that rain seldom falls. <br>
<br>
<i> </i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPg0KMJ7SEin-JiROtOSVd6jtReWcR2QvwzYWGrM8qMneA@mail.gmail.com"><br>
Perhaps limiting the initial proposal to ephemeral=yes would be
helpful. <br>
<br>
I would still like to see discussion of the cut-off between
regular intermittent=yes and ephemeral=yes. </blockquote>
<br>
The page gives some indications of the differences. <br>
As the page is not that to define what intermittent is perhaps that
discussion should take place on the intermittent page where it
belongs? <br>
<br>
<i>This infrequent occurrence and short duration signifies the
difference between this tag and </i><i><tt dir="ltr"
class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><bdi
style="white-space:nowrap"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent"
title="Key:intermittent">intermittent</a></bdi>=*</tt></i><br>
<tt dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:intermittent%3Dwinter&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Tag:intermittent=winter (page does not
exist)"><bdi></bdi></a></tt>
<table class="wikitable">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><i><tt dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><bdi
style="white-space:nowrap"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent"
title="Key:intermittent">intermittent</a></bdi>=<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:intermittent%3Dwinter&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Tag:intermittent=winter (page does
not exist)"><bdi>winter</bdi></a></tt></i></td>
<td><i>Water may be here in winter but not all the time. There
may be more than one water presence during the season.
</i></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table class="wikitable">
<tbody>
<tr>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table class="wikitable">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><i><tt dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"
style="background:#EEF;font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><bdi
style="white-space:nowrap"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:ephemeral&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Key:ephemeral (page does not
exist)">ephemeral</a></bdi>=<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:ephemeral%3Dwinter&action=edit&redlink=1"
class="new" title="Tag:ephemeral=winter (page does not
exist)"><bdi>winter</bdi></a></tt></i></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table class="wikitable">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><i>Water seldom here and only for a short duration and
only in winter. It would be rare to have more than one
water presence during the season.
</i></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPg0KMJ7SEin-JiROtOSVd6jtReWcR2QvwzYWGrM8qMneA@mail.gmail.com"><br>
Perhaps a simpler statement like “an ephemeral water feature
contains water less than once a year, on average” would be
clearer?</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks for that ... but .. <br>
Lacks the 'short duration' that is the source of the word
'ephemeral'. <br>
Ummm .. the difficulty is defining a 'short duration' in objective
terms? <br>
<br>
The other small point is 'contains' .. <br>
<br>
“an ephemeral feature has the presence of water for a short duration
and less than once a year, on average”<br>
But that still does not say what a 'short duration' is. Difficult.
May be 'less that a week' ???<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPg0KMJ7SEin-JiROtOSVd6jtReWcR2QvwzYWGrM8qMneA@mail.gmail.com">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 8:15 AM Warin <<a
href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi<br>
<br>
I have reworked the ephemeral proposal.<br>
<br>
This now demonstrates;<br>
<br>
the difference between intermittent and seasonal - some want
to combine <br>
them into one and see the ephemeral key as just another <br>
intermittent/seasonal thing so they vote no.<br>
<br>
that ephemeral applies to more that just streams - some want
it as a sub <br>
key to streams .. that is not possible if it applies to other
things, <br>
these people too vote no.<br>
<br>
<br>
It now draws on the seasonal page to demonstrate the use of
the seasonal <br>
values.<br>
<br>
<br>
I see this key being used by the experienced local who can
draw on local <br>
knowledge.<br>
<br>
The arm chair satellite mapper will have to stick with
intermittent as <br>
they will not be able to determine if seasonal nor ephemeral
apply, they <br>
may not even be able to determine intermittent.<br>
<br>
<br>
I hope this proposal page is now somewhat clearer?<br>
<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ephemeral"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ephemeral</a><br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------<br>
<br>
I may do a dairy entry on seasonal, intermittent and
ephemeral. Looks to <br>
me like a lot of confusion probably promoted by the use of
intermittent <br>
everywhere.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
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