<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>François,</p>
<p>Thank-you for addressing the mistakes I outlined (<i>some still
needs some polishing I gues</i>s), but anyway (<i>and putting
aside my reluctance to map such things</i>) I'm afraid there is
still something profoundly wrong with this proposal, at its very
essence.</p>
<p>I still don't understand what are <b>the objects</b> that one is
expected to map with this tag.</p>
<p>Taking as an example the first tower you depict for
"line_attachment=suspension"
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop.jpg">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop.jpg</a>)
what are they? The tower (<i>BTW, shouldn't it be pylon in Brit.
Eng. ?</i>) The "<i>branch</i>" (<i>sorry, I'm missing the
correct word...</i>) of the tower/pylon to which the insulator
sets are suspended? The rings/hooks/bolts/nuts suspending the
insulator sets under the "branch"? The insulator sets themselves?
The clamps suspending the conductors under the insulator sets?</p>
<p>Would it be too much asking you to edit the picture by adding a
red arrow pointing to the object of this tag?</p>
<p>TIA,</p>
<p>Sergio<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-03-10 17:54, François Lacombe
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAG0ygLdRD6V2htQ+jsBb4fTrUf0F93iEv63MmTHvmU5ubjJTEA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_attr">Thank you for the time took to provide
your conclusions here<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 9 mars 2019 à 19:22,
Sergio Manzi <<a href="mailto:smz@smz.it"
moz-do-not-send="true">smz@smz.it</a>> a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><b>A) </b><b>Scope of the proposal.</b><br>
<p>It is badly defined. The "Definition" is given as "<i>Consistently
defining how a power, telecom or even washing line is
attached to supporting pole or tower</i>", a very
broad definition, but then reading on I see that you
state that "<i>This proposal is mainly dedicated for
utilities network</i><i>s</i>". Which one should we
take? With the "mainly" adjective are you indicating
that you are willing to extend the scope of the proposal
to different application fields later on?</p>
<p>As a matter of fact I'm convinced that a generalization
cannot be done in terms of tagging: "attaching" a power
line to a fixed infrastructure is done with very
different techniques from the "attaching" of a washing
line, the suspension line of a cable car, the cables of
a suspension bridge, the overhead line of an electric
railway (<i>and I have the strong feeling tha "railways
taggers" here have their own ideas on how to tag their
contact lines</i>), etc., and therefore will require
different tagging schemes.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Since tagging is built by contributors here, yes all is
extendable by further proposals.<br>
</div>
<div>It's hard to get a whole topic described in one shot so
anyone will be able to propose more precise tagging for
insulators for instance.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Generalisation is made upon shared concepts. Whatever the
line is, an anchorage is still an anchorage.</div>
<div>Additional keys can precise how the anchorage is made,
and so on</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><b>B) </b><b>Inconsistency between the proposal name
and the tag name.</b></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Solved, proposed renamed accordingly. <br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p> </p>
<p><b>C) </b><b>Are we really talking about "Clamps"?</b><br>
</p>
<font face=""><font face="">The images you are attaching
to the definition of "suspension_clamp" and
"anchor_clamp" are misleading in the sense that one
could easily take what in reality is a "Suspension
insulator set" as a "Suspension clamp" and a "Tension
insulator set" as an "anchor clamp".</font></font></div>
</blockquote>
<div>Right. Clamp term is removed from the proposal and
values.</div>
<div>As the rationale stands to share concepts between power,
telecom or any supported line, it's out of the scope to
define insulators sets, chains and so on.</div>
<div>The point is to provide tags to make the distinguish
between suspension, anchorage and shackles.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face="">The confusion is even more
augmented by the fact that in your proposal you
refer to "shackle insulators" too (IEC 471-03-09),
and they are in a totally different area of the IEC
standards, "Insulators", same as "pin insulators"
(IEC 471-03-06).</font></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Shackle insulators are the basis to define shackles and
how they differ from suspension and anchors/tensions. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face="">So, are we talking about
clamps (fittings) or about insulators (<i>or
insulator sets</i>) here? Because it really seems</font></font><font
face=""><font face=""> you are mixing under the same
tag two very different kind of objects...</font></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>We are dealing with attachments, which only involve
insulators with bare power conductors.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face="">And BTW, how could you then
tag "the real clamp" with its bolts and nuts when it
comes to it?<br>
</font></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Keys have to be proposed for that, it's not the point of
the current proposal.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face=""> </font></font></p>
<p><font face=""><font face=""> </font></font></p>
<p><font face=""><font face=""><b>D) Inaccurate wording. </b>Some
examples:</font></font></p>
<ul>
<li><font face=""><font face="">You state that
"anchor_clamp" is "<i>built stronger than
suspension tower</i><i>s</i>". Really? A clamp
stronger than a tower? :-/</font></font></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>You're confused in your own reading.</div>
<div>First sentence begins with "A support" (referring to a
tower/pole) and second goes on with "it is", implying that
an anchor tower is built stronger than a suspension one.</div>
<div>Nevertheless I rephrased the whole definition as to make
it more clear.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<ul>
<li><font face=""><font face="">"<i>A shackle insulator
may be used to hold conductors safely from their
support</i>" Isn't that the meaning of the life
of <b>every</b> insulator?</font></font></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>... without any clamp, that's what I forgot to mention.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><b>E) Logical mishaps</b></p>
<p>In "Complex configuration", under the image of a pole
with two levels of conductors (<i>3 on the higher plane,
1 below "on the right"</i><i> watching the image</i>),
you state that "<i>Values would go <u>from right to lef</u></i><i><u>t</u>
/ top to down of the pole while values in each section
would be given <u>from left to right</u> in the
direction of the way passing by the support node</i>".
I <u>really</u> don't understand what you are trying to
say. Sorry for asking, but right and left wouldn't just
swap if I watch the pole from the opposite side? (<i>and
yes, as others already pointed out, semicolons have a
different meaning in OSM tagging</i>)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Right, that was not clear at all and has been rewritten.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
</div>
<div>François<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>