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<p>BTW, what I incorrectly (<i>I knew it was wrong!</i>) named a
"branch" of the tower is correctly named a "crossarm".</p>
<p>See:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=466-08-12">http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=466-08-12</a></p>
<p>Cheers!</p>
<p>Sergio</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-03-10 23:02, Sergio Manzi
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f7fcd18f-2089-671d-b6e4-6e3f5273dcf4@smz.it">
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<p>François,</p>
<p>Thank-you for addressing the mistakes I outlined (<i>some still
needs some polishing I gues</i>s), but anyway (<i>and putting
aside my reluctance to map such things</i>) I'm afraid there
is still something profoundly wrong with this proposal, at its
very essence.</p>
<p>I still don't understand what are <b>the objects</b> that one
is expected to map with this tag.</p>
<p>Taking as an example the first tower you depict for
"line_attachment=suspension"
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop.jpg</a>)
what are they? The tower (<i>BTW, shouldn't it be pylon in Brit.
Eng. ?</i>) The "<i>branch</i>" (<i>sorry, I'm missing the
correct word...</i>) of the tower/pylon to which the insulator
sets are suspended? The rings/hooks/bolts/nuts suspending the
insulator sets under the "branch"? The insulator sets
themselves? The clamps suspending the conductors under the
insulator sets?</p>
<p>Would it be too much asking you to edit the picture by adding a
red arrow pointing to the object of this tag?</p>
<p>TIA,</p>
<p>Sergio<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-03-10 17:54, François Lacombe
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAG0ygLdRD6V2htQ+jsBb4fTrUf0F93iEv63MmTHvmU5ubjJTEA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_attr">Thank you for the time took to
provide your conclusions here<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 9 mars 2019
à 19:22, Sergio Manzi <<a href="mailto:smz@smz.it"
moz-do-not-send="true">smz@smz.it</a>> a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><b>A) </b><b>Scope of the
proposal.</b><br>
<p>It is badly defined. The "Definition" is given as "<i>Consistently
defining how a power, telecom or even washing line
is attached to supporting pole or tower</i>", a very
broad definition, but then reading on I see that you
state that "<i>This proposal is mainly dedicated for
utilities network</i><i>s</i>". Which one should we
take? With the "mainly" adjective are you indicating
that you are willing to extend the scope of the
proposal to different application fields later on?</p>
<p>As a matter of fact I'm convinced that a
generalization cannot be done in terms of tagging:
"attaching" a power line to a fixed infrastructure is
done with very different techniques from the
"attaching" of a washing line, the suspension line of
a cable car, the cables of a suspension bridge, the
overhead line of an electric railway (<i>and I have
the strong feeling tha "railways taggers" here have
their own ideas on how to tag their contact lines</i>),
etc., and therefore will require different tagging
schemes.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Since tagging is built by contributors here, yes all is
extendable by further proposals.<br>
</div>
<div>It's hard to get a whole topic described in one shot so
anyone will be able to propose more precise tagging for
insulators for instance.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Generalisation is made upon shared concepts. Whatever
the line is, an anchorage is still an anchorage.</div>
<div>Additional keys can precise how the anchorage is made,
and so on</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><b>B) </b><b>Inconsistency between the proposal name
and the tag name.</b></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Solved, proposed renamed accordingly. <br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p> </p>
<p><b>C) </b><b>Are we really talking about "Clamps"?</b><br>
</p>
<font face=""><font face="">The images you are attaching
to the definition of "suspension_clamp" and
"anchor_clamp" are misleading in the sense that one
could easily take what in reality is a "Suspension
insulator set" as a "Suspension clamp" and a
"Tension insulator set" as an "anchor clamp".</font></font></div>
</blockquote>
<div>Right. Clamp term is removed from the proposal and
values.</div>
<div>As the rationale stands to share concepts between
power, telecom or any supported line, it's out of the
scope to define insulators sets, chains and so on.</div>
<div>The point is to provide tags to make the distinguish
between suspension, anchorage and shackles.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face="">The confusion is even
more augmented by the fact that in your proposal
you refer to "shackle insulators" too (IEC
471-03-09), and they are in a totally different
area of the IEC standards, "Insulators", same as
"pin insulators" (IEC 471-03-06).</font></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Shackle insulators are the basis to define shackles and
how they differ from suspension and anchors/tensions. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face="">So, are we talking about
clamps (fittings) or about insulators (<i>or
insulator sets</i>) here? Because it really
seems</font></font><font face=""><font face="">
you are mixing under the same tag two very
different kind of objects...</font></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>We are dealing with attachments, which only involve
insulators with bare power conductors.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face="">And BTW, how could you
then tag "the real clamp" with its bolts and nuts
when it comes to it?<br>
</font></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Keys have to be proposed for that, it's not the point
of the current proposal.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face=""><font face=""> </font></font></p>
<p><font face=""><font face=""> </font></font></p>
<p><font face=""><font face=""><b>D) Inaccurate wording.
</b>Some examples:</font></font></p>
<ul>
<li><font face=""><font face="">You state that
"anchor_clamp" is "<i>built stronger than
suspension tower</i><i>s</i>". Really? A clamp
stronger than a tower? :-/</font></font></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>You're confused in your own reading.</div>
<div>First sentence begins with "A support" (referring to a
tower/pole) and second goes on with "it is", implying that
an anchor tower is built stronger than a suspension one.</div>
<div>Nevertheless I rephrased the whole definition as to
make it more clear.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<ul>
<li><font face=""><font face="">"<i>A shackle
insulator may be used to hold conductors
safely from their support</i>" Isn't that the
meaning of the life of <b>every</b> insulator?</font></font></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>... without any clamp, that's what I forgot to mention.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><b>E) Logical mishaps</b></p>
<p>In "Complex configuration", under the image of a pole
with two levels of conductors (<i>3 on the higher
plane, 1 below "on the right"</i><i> watching the
image</i>), you state that "<i>Values would go <u>from
right to lef</u></i><i><u>t</u> / top to down of
the pole while values in each section would be given
<u>from left to right</u> in the direction of the
way passing by the support node</i>". I <u>really</u>
don't understand what you are trying to say. Sorry for
asking, but right and left wouldn't just swap if I
watch the pole from the opposite side? (<i>and yes, as
others already pointed out, semicolons have a
different meaning in OSM tagging</i>)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Right, that was not clear at all and has been
rewritten.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
</div>
<div>François<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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