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<p>Hello François,</p>
<p>So, your updated picture made it clear that it is the "insulator
set" what should be mapped with your newly proposed tag. I
suppose that for power lines the same would be true in case the
"line attachment" would be through a "pin insulator" or a "shackle
insulator" or every other form of insulator.</p>
<p>So, when one is supposed to use the "power=insulator" tag
instead?</p>
<p>The wiki for that tag (<i>which <b>you</b> wrote</i>) is
describing insulators as "<i>Power insulator linking a power line
to a support</i>" and also "<i>It's a power insulator linking an
overhead line to another (grounded) infrastructure</i>".</p>
<p>In the examples there is also a picture of a concrete portal with
the caption stating: "<i>Support : Insulators are used to <b>anchor
</b>the power line on a concrete portal</i>".</p>
<p><b>So we should tag the same node as both a "power=insulator" and
"line_attachment=suspension", or should we map a distinct node
for the "line_attachment"?</b></p>
<p>I would barely understand if you only had <b>two values</b> for
line_attachment <b>as properties of the "insulator" key</b>:
suspension and anchor, distinguishing if the vector of forces on
an insulator add-up to an essentially vertical vector because the
"traction" forces of two catenaries compensate each other and you
just have a vertical component of force at the binding post (<i>suspension</i>),
or you don't have the compensation of the two catenaries (the line
is attached to a fixed post or the two catenaries are not
compensated) and you also have an horizontal component of force
that the binding post must sustain (<i>anchor</i>). Not much
useful to know, IMHO, but hey, who am I to judge that?<br>
</p>
<p>But that's not the case, unhappily! In your proposal you also
describe "<i>shackle insulators</i>" and "<i>pin insulators</i>"
as "line attachments". For me they should have been documented in
the "insulator" key as types of insulators (<i>yes, Warin, I know
you dislike "type" and it goes under your skin...</i>).</p>
<p><b>A</b><b>s I wrote you in our personal mail exchange I have the
feeling that you are trying to map "concepts", not "things",
through generalization: the Platonic idea of a line attachment
in this case.</b></p>
<p>You're doing the same in your current proposal about
"substations" (<i><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Substation_functions">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Substation_functions</a></i>),
where you want to generalize the concept of "substation" and apply
it to both the domain of power distribution (power) and fluid
distributions (pipeline).</p>
<p>That's profoundly wrong in my opinion and I strongly feel that
this should stop: we are not here "to put order in the universe"
and categorize a and "name things" (<i>I'm an atheist, so I'm not
much informed about this things, but I seems to remember that
the Bible talks about that...</i>), we are here to map useful
information about things.</p>
<p>And the above, of course, is in addition to my basic objection
about mapping things that I think are more fit to AutoCAD or CATIA
than OSM...</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Sergio<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-03-11 23:35, François Lacombe
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAG0ygLdxngK0w5tDXfsa8WLD4pVUvLgXxyx9uC=3aHfgbSFmHA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>Hi Sergio,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The proposal aims to map the way lines are bound to
their supports.<br>
</div>
<div>In my mind, attachement = {Insulator set ; clamps ;
accessories to secure the insulators on crossarms} for a
bare power conductor.<br>
</div>
<div>Further keys can give details about each item in this
set (but out of the current proposal).</div>
<div>For insulated cables you don't have insulators but the
attachment methods are the same.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here are illustrations :</div>
<div><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop_suspension.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop_suspension.jpg</a></div>
<div><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Power_cable_suspension_attachment.png"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Power_cable_suspension_attachment.png</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Keep in mind that currently, it is possible to give the
same information with tower:type=suspension.</div>
<div>As explained in the rationale, :type suffix is
meaningless and gather too much possibilities to be
usable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hope it's clearer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>François<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le dim. 10 mars 2019
à 23:04, Sergio Manzi <<a href="mailto:smz@smz.it"
moz-do-not-send="true">smz@smz.it</a>> a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p>François,</p>
<p>Thank-you for addressing the mistakes I outlined (<i>some
still needs some polishing I gues</i>s), but
anyway (<i>and putting aside my reluctance to map
such things</i>) I'm afraid there is still
something profoundly wrong with this proposal, at
its very essence.</p>
<p>I still don't understand what are <b>the objects</b>
that one is expected to map with this tag.</p>
<p>Taking as an example the first tower you depict for
"line_attachment=suspension"
(<a
class="gmail-m_-497376586945420158moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop.jpg"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Elbekreuzung_2_traversen_crop.jpg</a>)
what are they? The tower (<i>BTW, shouldn't it be
pylon in Brit. Eng. ?</i>) The "<i>branch</i>" (<i>sorry,
I'm missing the correct word...</i>) of the
tower/pylon to which the insulator sets are
suspended? The rings/hooks/bolts/nuts suspending the
insulator sets under the "branch"? The insulator
sets themselves? The clamps suspending the
conductors under the insulator sets?</p>
<p>Would it be too much asking you to edit the picture
by adding a red arrow pointing to the object of this
tag?</p>
<p>TIA,</p>
<p>Sergio<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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