<div dir="auto"><div>> <span style="font-family:sans-serif">I think if you investigate, you will find that invariably such complaints (including the predictably, invariably going to be used,"toxic"), originate with people that didn't get their way, or associates of them ("didn't get their way" as in: there was a substantial body of opinions that disagreed with what ever they were proposing). </span></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif">I've "gotten my way" in threads that had toxic elements before, so no, I won't find that.</font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif">> </font><span style="font-family:sans-serif">If you are addressing a very diverse group, disagreement is the name of the game. </span></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif">Disagreement isn't one of the problems I listed. The closest is this: receiving absolutely incompatible opinions that are presented as authoritative and certain. They are a serious challenge to the usefulness of this list. It requires you to disregard several positions - the claims aren't really up for debate, as presented - and given the nonexistent standards of decorum, that often goes poorly.</font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif">> </font><span style="font-family:sans-serif">PS: I think you owe us proof of this rather extraordinary claim > - You will probably be insulted at some point, potentially sworn at.</span></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif">I strongly prefer to not go after individuals (which is what that would turn into), as that doesn't serve any purpose but division and pettiness. If you ask privately I'd be happy to send you examples.<br></font><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May 24, 2019, 1:56 AM Simon Poole <<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch">simon@poole.ch</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><br>
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<div class="m_-1190330771992305289moz-cite-prefix">Am 24.05.2019 um 00:59 schrieb Nick
Bolten:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">> The talk ML might be a better spot for this,
this topic has already strayed quite far from the original
topic. (And maybe start the topic on a more positive prospect
instead of with a rant ;-)
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So far as I can tell, the topic on this mailing list (as it
often is) is to gripe about how the iD editor isn't listening
to this mailing list (and sometimes on Github issues). I've
listed some reasons as to why someone might not listen to this
mailing list. Reasons that I've heard echoed many times in
various venues...</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>I think if you investigate, you will find that invariably such
complaints (including the predictably, invariably going to be
used,"toxic"), originate with people that didn't get their way, or
associates of them ("didn't get their way" as in: there was a
substantial body of opinions that disagreed with what ever they
were proposing). <br>
</p>
<p>If you are addressing a very diverse group, disagreement is the
name of the game. People that can't with live that will tend to
gyrate towards more controlled and selective environments,
particularly if they can control the discourse as they can do for
example on a github repo, or a slack channel. Not to mention that
on any of the larger more diverse forums, that is any of the
international, and topical mailing lists, forums, IRC channels,
you will have a large selection of different discussion cultures,
and will experience everything from people directly calling a
spade a spade, to criticism being packaged in multiple layers of
cotton wool. <br>
</p>
<p>Simon<br>
</p>
<p>PS: I think you owe us proof of this rather extraordinary claim
> - You will probably be insulted at some point, potentially
sworn at. </p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 3:05
PM Tobias Zwick <<a href="mailto:osm@westnordost.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">osm@westnordost.de</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">These
are some valid points, and I also have some input to that, but
are you sure you want to discuss this on the tagging ML? The
talk ML might be a better spot for this, this topic has
already strayed quite far from the original topic. (And maybe
start the topic on a more positive prospect instead of with a
rant ;-)<br>
<br>
Tobias<br>
<br>
On 23/05/2019 21:58, Nick Bolten wrote:<br>
>> Yes, it would be great. There is plenty of negative
emotion on both sides and it would be great to reverse this
(for example title that I used was frankly stupid what I
realized after sending the message).<br>
> <br>
> OSM needs an alternative for community tagging
discussions outside of these mailing lists. Ones that people
will actually use and that have a reasonable,
community-oriented code of conduct. I have talked to 10X more
people about my `crossing` proposals outside of this mailing
list (in-person, personal emails, slack, etc.) and the
differences could not be more stark:<br>
> <br>
> # My experiences with OSMers in other contexts:<br>
> - Very friendly, all focused on making maps better,
highly motivated to donate their time to help others via the
map.<br>
> - Disagreements are pleasant. Both sides acknowledge the
other point of view and usually come around to a compromise.<br>
> - There is interest in knowing more: lots of questions
back and forth.<br>
> - Objections are qualified and polite.<br>
> - 10s-100s of people giving feedback on a single idea.<br>
> <br>
> # My experience with this mailing list:<br>
> - Quick to exasperate.<br>
> - You will be assumed to be coming to the table in bad
faith.<br>
> - You will probably be insulted at some point,
potentially sworn at.<br>
> - The same 8 or so people respond to posts out of a
community of tens of thousands of people, companies,
non-profits, etc.<br>
> - The odd situation of absolute certainty in completely
incompatible opinions from those that do respond.<br>
> - Difficult for people to discover. How do we know that
the opinions shared here are in any way representative of the
community, given that so few discover + participate in it?<br>
> - Difficult to filter for relevance. Have to set up email
filters and/or specialized search queries.<br>
> - Zero real synchronization with OSM editors, the only
way people add data to the map. Blame doled out everywhere,
but very little in the way of collaboration, no real venue for
doing so (see previous bullet points).<br>
> <br>
> Focusing on the idea of being an "arbiter", does that
sound like a good way to figure out which tags are
good/acceptable?<br>
> <br>
> When I was mentoring a group of students a few years ago,
several were offended by the condescending and insulting
responses they received on this mailing list, all because they
suggested making a coherent way of combining existing tags
into a pedestrian schema and doing a carefully-vetted import.
The import was so carefully-vetted that we later realized it
wasn't even really an import, but this didn't stop there being
several insulting accusations from several long-term OSMers on
these lists. Those students were motivated by helping other
people and spent literal months attempting to gather enough
information from underspecified tagging standards and would
have been put off the community entirely if it weren't for the
project's momentum and much more productive and friendly
interactions with local OSMers. I think it's probably a good
thing that it's so hard to even know that there is a mailing
list, as users have a negative experience.<br>
> <br>
> To boot, there are technical problems solved by virtually
every other messaging system:<br>
> - Difficult to discover.<br>
> - Virtually impossible for new users to join recent
discussions - they need to have subscribed to the list first.<br>
> - Discovering old discussions is difficult, requires some
nerdy prowess.<br>
> - Terrible security practices. Passwords sent in plain
text over email. No encryption. I was almost put off the
mailing list entirely when I saw this. Completely
unacceptable.<br>
> <br>
> Gripes aside, I have a suggestion: move these discussions
to a real forum system, properly organized around
regional/topic-specific/tagging discussions. It could be a
revamped <a href="https://forum.openstreetmap.org/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://forum.openstreetmap.org/</a> or
something fancier and slack-like (like riot chat). Have actual
moderators and code of conduct. The current mode of
communication is systematically flawed.<br>
> <br>
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 12:06 PM Mateusz Konieczny <<a href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> 23 May 2019, 18:32 by <a href="mailto:osm@westnordost.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">osm@westnordost.de</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:osm@westnordost.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">osm@westnordost.de</a>>:<br>
> <br>
> reverse this development.<br>
> <br>
> Yes, it would be great. There is plenty of negative
emotion on both sides and it<br>
> would be great to reverse this (for example title
that I used was frankly stupid<br>
> what I realized after sending the message).<br>
> <br>
> I had to rewrite this last paragraph several
times, but, well, I hope this does not come across the wrong
way...<br>
> it can certainly not continue like this, so ...
why not interview him, honestly and with open outcome, how
should the collaboration and communication in OSM happen in
the future from his point of view? Would he rather feel
relieved or rather feel betrayed if the gatekeeping
(~deployment) is done by other people? Does he really feel
alienated (because I assumed it) from the community and if
yes, why? And most importantly, what would it take to reverse
this?<br>
> <br>
> +1, though it would be tricky to find someone both
interested in doing this, with time to do that,<br>
> and not already involved in a poor way<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tagging mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tagging mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<pre class="m_-1190330771992305289moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="m_-1190330771992305289moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_-1190330771992305289moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>