<div dir="ltr">I know how to fix these issues. The point is, as it is it's not good enough for data use besides rendering. you can't rely on route relations for anything but rendering, and you can't fix that with software. It's not a tagging issue, though.<div><br></div><div>Gpx gaps in some software do show up as straight lines. If it's just a missing piece and the rest is in order, no problem. In the case of the E2 in Yorkshire, lots of straight lines. Feed that to a navigation device and it will have you start in Muston, take you around and across the entire region multiple times, and end up near Barnetby Ie Wold. You wil actually have followed the E2 as well, I'll give you that!</div><div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Fr gr Peter Elderson</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op za 17 aug. 2019 om 03:16 schreef Warin <<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_3134068705193600197moz-cite-prefix">My limited experience;<br>
<br>
Gaps on the gpx route tend to be straight lines, ok when they are
contiguous but where they back track it gets confusing. <br>
<br>
Some initial thoughts on what I would do, and have done on some
routes of interest to me ...<br>
<br>
On 16/08/19 21:31, Peter Elderson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Looked at de E2 relation in Yorkshire. It would
require a lot of work to make it work for data users beside
rendering, and to fit it into the E2 superroute as a whole.
<div>a. Nodes in the relation - not unheard of, but then with a
role like start. Should be removed.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Agreed. I don't think nodes belong on a route?<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>b. 10 gaps. Needs investigating the cause; some just
reflect wrong order.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Re ordering is fairly easy. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>c. There are a bunch of sorted chains of ways. Maybe just a
sorting problem, maybe more. Simple sort doesn't work because
of the nodes and nested relations.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Remove the nodes. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>d. Contains ways and other route relations. The other
routes appear to belong to another main variant running far to
the west through Yorkshire. These should be separately
checked, sorted, oriented and repaired, and then moved to a
separate relation, in the right order (north to south). <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
If the relations are 'alternatives' .. or even if they are not ..
move them all to the end of the members and sort the way you have
into some order. <br>
Then look at the gaps and see if any of the relations 'fit'. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The eastern and western variants separate in Scotland, then
run separately through England. The east route is the one that
connects to the european E2 which follows the GR5 to Nice. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The E2 has occasional signs all along the route, but the
regular waymarking is that of the constituting trails. I think
that is enough to say it's waymarked. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anybody knows who is mapping routes in England, knows his
relation stuff, and wants to fix this?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Not in England, and not that interested in looking at it in detail.
<br>
Deleting nodes is easy, even putting them into a relation and then
placing that relation at the end so it does not interfere with
sorting is easy.. if someone objects to the nodes being deleted. <br>
Sorting and order the ways too is easy. Dealing with 'alternatives'
needs some knowledge of the route, I don't have that. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_3134068705193600197gmail_signature">Fr gr Peter Elderson<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op vr 16 aug. 2019 om 12:09
schreef Peter Elderson <<a href="mailto:pelderson@gmail.com" target="_blank">pelderson@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op vr 16 aug. 2019 om
10:59 schreef Andy Townsend <<a href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com" target="_blank">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 16/08/2019 08:50,
Peter Elderson wrote:<br>
> Josm of course. Is there another relation editor
that can handle large nested route relations spanning up
to say 4000 Km?<br>
<br>
P2 can, at least. Other people seem to suggest that iD
does a <br>
reasonable job now too.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry to disagree. P2 and ID are aware of relations
and can do a few basic things like adding/removing a way
and shifting a way up and down, in one relation at a
time. If you maintain a lot of long distance routes,
that is painfully inadequate. Even more so if you try to
do it in a way that prepares the relations for data
users, currently meaning linear and gapless gpx-es for
use in navigation software, elevation profiles, and trip
planners. You need validation, gap detection, multiple
relation windows with shifting between windows, sorting,
jump to first/last member, direction reverse, download
all members even those not in the bbox, ... </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
The more interesting question, though, is "why do you
want walking route <br>
relations to be sorted". The point that's already been
made about <br>
routes that use the same way twice is a valid one, but
almost never <br>
applies to walking route relations. What are you trying
to do with e.g. <br>
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1976184" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1976184</a>
(the part of E2* that <br>
runs through Yorkshire) if it's not sorted?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div>If it's not sorted: display only. If I want to walk
it, I want to use OsmAnd navigation and or Garmin
navigation. OsmAnd and Garmin currently cannot use the
relation directly, so I have to use a gpx, and they
recalculate the route for navigation. The gpx needs to
be continous, sorted and gapless, or it won't work.
Overpass and Waymarkedtrails can export to a routable
gpx, if the relation is one sorted and continous chain
of ways.</div>
<div>So before exporting, I use JOSM relation editor, load
the entire thing, solve all gaps en remove duplications,
move alternatives one or more separate relations, then
export the main route as gpx. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also notify the operator of the website <a href="https://www.longdistancepaths.eu/en/" target="_blank">https://www.longdistancepaths.eu/en/</a> </div>
<div>so he can use the export for his trip planner. If he
could depend on routes to be flawless in OSM he could
connect directly to it for automatic periodical
refresh. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the route is on that planner, I would probably use
that first to plan the trip and route according to train
and bus stations, hotels & B&B's, and places on
the way, then export the trip gpx from that planner.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I will actually have a look at the E2 Yorkshire thing
after lunch. I can repair technical problems. If I need
local survey I can probably not fix it completely. Have
to look at the history as well, don't want to offend
mappers over there with foreign ideas. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Andy<br>
<br>
* There are actually many other things wrong with that
relation. It's <br>
not signed, so in a since here it "does not exist" but
at the very least <br>
it should be tagged as such. Also it's actually defined
here in terms <br>
of the Wolds Way (which is signed), not in terms of
individual paths. I <br>
also doubt that the LDWA is in any sense an "operator".<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
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