<div dir="ltr">Hi Roland,<div><br></div><div>I guess this is for your upcoming SotM session "New processes to agree on tagging suggestions and their interaction with the editing software available on <a href="http://openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">openstreetmap.org</a>" <a href="https://2019.stateofthemap.org/sessions/PPTHFQ/" target="_blank">https://2019.stateofthemap.org/sessions/PPTHFQ/</a></div><div><br></div><div>If I were tackling this as a consultancy project I might map out the current processes, highlight good and bad points, then identify places where the process could be improved.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I looked recently at how UK shop names/types defaults get into iD and how the UK community can influence it. This led me to the (pleasant) discovery of a) the Name Suggestion Index (NSI) <a href="https://osmlab.github.io/name-suggestion-index/index.html">https://osmlab.github.io/name-suggestion-index/index.html</a> b) the OSMUS Slack channel, c) the <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom</a> wiki page.</div><div><br></div><div>Good points were: the vocabulary is editable by anyone capable of using JSON and github; the NSI is used by multiple apps (e.g. Vespucci and iD); the iD Developers are open to discussion; individuals updating the NSI with UK shops looked at the osmwiki 'UK retail chains' page.</div><div><br></div><div>Bad points were: not everyone can/wants to use github; the NSI may be receiving too many trivial additions; there is a great will to advance. Sometimes this means that arbitrary choices are made; the osmwiki page is edited by a small number of people.</div><div><br></div><div>To improve this process we might: run an OSMUK Quarterly Project to collect and publish current photos of shopfronts (as proof of the brand name used); ask app developers to include new features that collect metadata; get grants from OSMF to pay developers to add these new features; insist that the NSI site evidence for additions; document and publicise the process; etc.</div><div><br></div><div>However, you could argue that evolution of the process is not strong enough and that revolutionary change is needed.</div><div><br></div><div>See you at your session.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div> Jez</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:57 AM Roland Olbricht <<a href="mailto:roland.olbricht@gmx.de" target="_blank">roland.olbricht@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I have got into the duty to talk about tagging governance on the SotM<br>
and I would like to develop that opportunity towards something that is<br>
rather helpful in the long term.<br>
To ensure that I am on the right track and not unintentionally after a<br>
personal agenda I would like to ask you to comment on the findings so<br>
far listed below.<br>
<br>
This is a copy of the message to talk@. As a courtesy to your fellow<br>
mappers I suggest to keep the discussion in one thread and reply there.<br>
<br>
<br>
Imperfect Flow of Information<br>
<br>
Although many parts of the OpenStreetMap project are well translated,<br>
the tagging documentation has substantial deficiencies.<br>
Over a random sample of 10 tags the number of declared languages varies<br>
between 2 and 18,<br>
but only few are complete and up to date (sample: 2 of 10 for German, 3<br>
of 10 for French).<br>
<br>
Another kind of imperfect information flow is that tag definitions can<br>
be changed on the wiki page long after the tag is in widespread use.<br>
<br>
The converse case that a tag is introduced without any documentation is<br>
also happening. While this happens by ordinary users usually slow enough<br>
to make sense of the added data, an import or organized edit might be<br>
able to substantially skew the de facto meaning of a tag, regardless<br>
whether it is in widespread use, documented, both, or none.<br>
<br>
<br>
More Structure needed<br>
<br>
The translation issues have been conflated with a different problem:<br>
Different features may look very different between regions. E.g.<br>
highway=primary and highway=unclassfied versus highway=track<br>
need different sets of examples in Germany and the urban US on the one<br>
hand and Iceland or rural Africa on the other. It is easy to mix this<br>
with the translation into the predominant language in the area,<br>
but the tagging challenges in Belgium, Canada, and Niger are<br>
substantially different, although all three countries happen to have<br>
French as official language. Conversely, there is no sane reason to<br>
change tagging rules every block of houses in Brussels.<br>
<br>
Additionally, people often have different search terms than the British<br>
English tag names or their translations, and the wiki search engine is<br>
infamous for its bad performance. Having explicit keywords to direct the<br>
attention of a mapper to the list of possibly fitting tags might help.<br>
<br>
A substantial problem source of the concept of proposals is<br>
that it interacts with lots of tags in a nontrivial way and is<br>
practically never properly applied to all affected tag definitions.<br>
A proposal currently is an extra page although it should have much more<br>
an impact like a Git commit, grouping changes across various tag<br>
definition pages in a single changeset.<br>
<br>
<br>
Legitimacy and Governance<br>
<br>
What legitimation has a process if only a handful of people have that<br>
have the time to write mails on a mailing list and to write wiki pages<br>
are involved? In particular, if the proposals end up as being full of<br>
contradictions or vague terms and leave necessary answers undefined.<br>
Yet these still are the people that have shown the necessary long-term<br>
endurance to assure maintenance and that do the work. Thus every change<br>
to replace processes with better processes must be geared towards<br>
broadening not narrowing the base of long-term maintainers.<br>
<br>
Conversely, I fully understand mappers that are wary of sudden changes<br>
in the rendering or the access to tags in edting software. A lot of<br>
people whould probably appreciate to better understand what happens on<br>
the way<br>
from a tag discussion to a final change in the renderer or editing software.<br>
These processes are not secret, but often under-documented.<br>
<br>
Again, the various discussion channels and the lacking information flow<br>
contribute to the bad mood. Even worse, the ratio between people and<br>
channels means that evil or just plainly incompetent people could easily<br>
take over some channels and contribute substantially to the confusion.<br>
Good ideas how to redirect people and close down some of the channels<br>
(e.g. wiki discussion pages) might be worth pursuing. On top of that the<br>
wiki history is so much less helpful than what developers are nowadays<br>
used to from version control systems that borrowing methaphors and<br>
paradigms from there to the tag documentation is worth consideration.<br>
<br>
This hopefully helps to foster that the authors of the documentation and<br>
the mappers using a tag actually agree on its meaning.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Roland<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div>