<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>OpenStreetMap is a project that produces open data. "open"
implies everybody being allowed to use the data in any way they
see fit, including rendering disused facilities in green with pink
stripes.</p>
<p>There is nothing "sad" about that.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 26.09.2019 um 15:16 schrieb Paul
Allen:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPy1dOK8w1SE8iKGkrgVFFO_n-AoLBmDpp+A3X2KSxBTgHOwFA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 at 00:53, Warin <<a
href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">disused:*=*
means it cannot presently be used for its intended
purpose. That does not mean it does not exist.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Correct.</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">
How renders chose to display that is up to them. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also correct (sadly).<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">
But the tagging is correct and truthful.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Using disused=yes is correct and truthful. Using
disused:foo=bar is ALSO correct and truthful.</div>
<div>Both are documented as valid ways of tagging disused
objects.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">
Choosing another tag because it renders the way desired
is not a good thing. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Only because the behaviour is not guaranteed across
renderers or even over time for a single</div>
<div>renderer. However, choosing one correct and truthful tag
over an alternative correct and</div>
<div>truthful tag because of how it renders in one renderer is
not wrong (even though some may</div>
<div>consider it unwise).</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> For those who use
disused=yes because it renders .. are you equally happy to
have amenity=toilet rendered when it has disused=yes on
it??? <br>
How about a pub, atm etc etc... <br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You mean like the toilet near me that has been shut
down because the council can't afford to run it</div>
<div>but which a local non-profit organization hopes to take
over and re-open? The building still</div>
<div>exists, but if i use disused:building=yes it vanishes
from standard carto. It's no longer being</div>
<div>used as a toilet but may be in the future, but if I add
disused=yes then the toilet symbol renders</div>
<div>so people turning up there with full bladders are going
to be upset.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Or how about the many disused quarries near me? They
still exist. They are visible. Some<br>
</div>
<div>of them pose a hazard. If I use disused:landuse=quarry
they vanish from standard carto.<br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Renders need to
distinguish between active features and those no longer in
service, but</blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> still existing. That
is a rendering issue not a tagging issue.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How could renderers tell the difference unless the
tagging informs them? One way would</div>
<div>be for them to render only physical objects in the
disused namespace, so that<br>
</div>
<div> building:disused=yes renders but
disused:amenity=toilets does not get a toilet symbol.</div>
<div>That leaves a problem if somebody uses building=yes +
amenity=toilets + disused=yes,</div>
<div>although that's still possible for a renderer to figure
out. However, many renderers do</div>
<div>not currently make those distinctions.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The other way is that renderers agree to support a
tagging convention that disused:foo=bar</div>
<div>suppresses rendering but disused=yes does not (standard
carto is ahead of the game here).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There ARE cases where disused objects should be
rendered and there ARE cases where they</div>
<div>should not. We SHOULD have a tagging convention that
at least one major renderer supports</div>
<div>so that we can control this. Mostly it seems that
disused physical objects should render</div>
<div>but disused properties should not, although that may
not always be the case, so two</div>
<div>ways of tagging disused objects leaves the decision up
to the mapper rather than relying</div>
<div>on a heuristic that may sometimes be wrong.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Moaning that we have two tags used to do the same thing
which mappers choose between</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">because
of rendering isn't helpful. Warning that those choices may
be incorrect in different</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">renderers,
or may suddenly stop behaving in the expected way in
standard carto is better.</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">A
documented agreement with (at least standard) carto on
expected behaviour that allows</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">disused
objects to be rendered correctly would be best of all.
Except this is OSM and we</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">don't
do joined-up thinking.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">-- <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix">Paul</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4024231442169510653moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>