<div dir="auto"><div>Reminder 1: There are loops within bus route doesn't mean the route is a circular or round trip route.</div><div dir="auto">Reminder 2: The roundtrip=* key is designed to use in combination with hiking routes or bicycle routes. A hiking/bicyle route that goes A→B→A which come back with the same start point with exact same alignment as the other direction doesn't really mean anything so I don't think a special value would be needed for such case. As for bus routes, whether or not it goes back along same road doesn't really mean anything either.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">在 2019年12月21日週六 17:28，Warin <<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>> 寫道：<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Dear Volker,</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I saw that someone went ahead and changed the
wiki again:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span>Use </span><tt dir="ltr" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:1.6;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;vertical-align:baseline;background:rgb(238,238,255);color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:16px;vertical-align:baseline;background:none" rel="noreferrer">roundtrip</a>=yes</tt><span> to
indicate that start and end of a route are at the same
location.</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><font face="-apple-system, blinkmacsystemfont,
segoe ui, roboto, lato, helvetica, arial, sans-serif" color="#222222"><span style="font-size:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="auto">I think this new definition matches your idea of
roundtrip and it's fine for both definitions.</div>
<div dir="auto">My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag
in favour of:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">roundtrip:type=linear|circular</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Do you agree?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No. <br>
<br>
"Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???<br>
<br>
As for the values .. you will need to define them!<br>
<br>
'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both
directions .. and then separates into a loop where the segments are
only used in one direction. <br>
<br>
I could imaging routes that have several loops used in one
direction and then ways that are used in both directions .. arrr
there is another route that does that ... <br>
<br>
So what values will there be to cover complex cases??? <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Francesco</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45
Volker Schmidt <<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">voschix@gmail.com</a>> ha
scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's
put any other wiki-changes on halt for a moment.<br>
</div>
<div>What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip
tag is being used (the wiki is suposed to document the
actual use, not what the use should be) and in
particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of
roundtrip=yes|no for anything else than loop=yes|no. <br>
</div>
<div>It's difficult to get reliable quantitative
results, but:<br>
</div>
<div>A fast overpass turbo wizard query<br>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">"type:relation and
route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"</div>
<div>resulted in <br>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">Italy: 58 lines with at
best a handful of them not closed loops</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">France: 358 lines with
maybe 10 non-loops</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">England: 25 lines, all
loops.</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">USA: 29, about 6
non-loops</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">Bavaria 213, did not find
any non-loops<br>
</div>
<div>For me this is a strong indication that the large
majority of all cycle route relations in these
countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact loops
and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag. <br>
</div>
<div>I think this is a strong case against any change.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Taginfo points in the same direction<br>
</div>
<div>12665 roundtrip=no</div>
<div>21774 roundtrip=yes</div>
<div>42 closed_loop=yes</div>
<div>no closed_loop=no</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Volker<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at
18:17, Francesco Ansanelli <<a href="mailto:francians@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">francians@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>In my opinion the options are:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">- deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2
tags with a generally agreed naming convention
(best at this point)</div>
<div dir="auto">- keep roundtrip and closed_loop
with the wiki definition I did change (relations
must be updated accordingly)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I read many of you asked a revert, I
just want to point out that is not a resolution
because tag is currently messed up<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il ven 20 dic
2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr <<a href="mailto:doerr.stephen@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">doerr.stephen@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Merriam Webster and
some other resources you have quoted are
dictionary for American English, not the
variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
original author of the topic on the wiki
talk page have explained the meaning of
the term in British English.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The OED definitions read as follows:<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Originally U.S.<br>
A. n.<br>
1.<br>
a. A journey to a place and back again,
along the same route; (also) a journey to
one or more places and back again which
does not cover the same ground twice, a
circular tour or trip.<br>
<br>
b. Baseball. A home run. Cf.
round-tripper n. 2.<br>
<br>
2. In extended use and figurative, esp.
(Mining and Oil Industry) an act of
withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.<br>
<br>
3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The
action or an instance of buying and
selling the same stock, commodity, etc.,
often simultaneously. Cf. round turn n. 4.<br>
<br>
B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North
American.<br>
<br>
1. Of or relating to a round trip (in
various senses). Cf. return n. Compounds
1.<br>
<br>
2. That makes or has made a round trip
(literal and figurative).<br>
<br>
C. adv. Chiefly North American.<br>
<br>
As a round trip; by travelling to a
place and back again.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and
'North American'. It's an American phrase,
though now widely adopted in the UK.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Steve<br>
</div>
_______________________________________________</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
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