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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/12/19 21:25, Francesco Ansanelli
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAF0E3p5sT+fSbAh-w8FRz9s1HLjQGsAP2pc_xooicEY+0CeAXw@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">And with existing tags how you describe it?</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAF0E3p5sT+fSbAh-w8FRz9s1HLjQGsAP2pc_xooicEY+0CeAXw@mail.gmail.com"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il sab 21 dic 2019, 10:28
Warin <<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>> ha
scritto:<br>
</div>
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<div>On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Dear Volker,</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I saw that someone went ahead and
changed the wiki again:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span>Use </span><tt dir="ltr"
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:1.6;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;vertical-align:baseline;background:rgb(238,238,255);color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:16px;vertical-align:baseline;background:none"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">roundtrip</a>=yes</tt><span> to
indicate that start and end of a route are at the
same location.</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><font face="-apple-system,
blinkmacsystemfont, segoe ui, roboto, lato,
helvetica, arial, sans-serif" color="#222222"><span
style="font-size:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="auto">I think this new definition matches your
idea of roundtrip and it's fine for both definitions.</div>
<div dir="auto">My last offer is to abandon the
closed_loop tag in favour of:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">roundtrip:type=linear|circular</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Do you agree?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No. <br>
<br>
"Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???<br>
<br>
As for the values .. you will need to define them!<br>
<br>
'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both
directions .. and then separates into a loop where the
segments are only used in one direction. <br>
<br>
I could imaging routes that have several loops used in one
direction and then ways that are used in both directions ..
arrr there is another route that does that ... <br>
<br>
So what values will there be to cover complex cases??? <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Francesco</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il ven 20 dic
2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt <<a
href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">voschix@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Please revert the roundtrip wiki change,
but let's put any other wiki-changes on halt
for a moment.<br>
</div>
<div>What we need to do is to find out how the
roundtrip tag is being used (the wiki is
suposed to document the actual use, not what
the use should be) and in particular if there
is a more-than sporadic use of
roundtrip=yes|no for anything else than
loop=yes|no. <br>
</div>
<div>It's difficult to get reliable quantitative
results, but:<br>
</div>
<div>A fast overpass turbo wizard query<br>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">"type:relation and
route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"</div>
<div>resulted in <br>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">Italy: 58 lines
with at best a handful of them not closed
loops</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">France: 358 lines
with maybe 10 non-loops</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">England: 25
lines, all loops.</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">USA: 29, about 6
non-loops</div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">Bavaria 213, did
not find any non-loops<br>
</div>
<div>For me this is a strong indication that the
large majority of all cycle route relations in
these countries that have a roundrip=yes are
in fact loops and that that this is the
de-facto use of the tag. <br>
</div>
<div>I think this is a strong case against any
change.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Taginfo points in the same direction<br>
</div>
<div>12665 roundtrip=no</div>
<div>21774 roundtrip=yes</div>
<div>42 closed_loop=yes</div>
<div>no closed_loop=no</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Volker<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 20 Dec
2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli <<a
href="mailto:francians@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">francians@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>In my opinion the options are:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">- deprecate roundtrip in
favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed
naming convention (best at this point)</div>
<div dir="auto">- keep roundtrip and
closed_loop with the wiki definition I did
change (relations must be updated
accordingly)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I read many of you asked a
revert, I just want to point out that is
not a resolution because tag is currently
messed up<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il ven
20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr <<a
href="mailto:doerr.stephen@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">doerr.stephen@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
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<div>
<div>On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Merriam
Webster and some other resources
you have quoted are dictionary for
American English, not the variant
of English used by OSM. Posts by
original author of the topic on
the wiki talk page have explained
the meaning of the term in British
English.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The OED definitions read as follows:<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Originally U.S.<br>
A. n.<br>
1.<br>
a. A journey to a place and back
again, along the same route;
(also) a journey to one or more
places and back again which does
not cover the same ground twice, a
circular tour or trip.<br>
<br>
b. Baseball. A home run. Cf.
round-tripper n. 2.<br>
<br>
2. In extended use and
figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil
Industry) an act of withdrawing
and replacing a drill pipe.<br>
<br>
3. Stock Market (originally
U.S.). The action or an instance
of buying and selling the same
stock, commodity, etc., often
simultaneously. Cf. round turn n.
4.<br>
<br>
B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly
North American.<br>
<br>
1. Of or relating to a round trip
(in various senses). Cf. return n.
Compounds 1.<br>
<br>
2. That makes or has made a round
trip (literal and figurative).<br>
<br>
C. adv. Chiefly North American.<br>
<br>
As a round trip; by travelling
to a place and back again.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Note the frequent references to
'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
American phrase, though now widely
adopted in the UK.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Steve<br>
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