<div dir="auto">Bicycle or hiking routes in OSM that are not trailblazed have one big drawback: they confuse data end users (they are looking for the signs, and if there are none, think they have taken the wrong turn.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 19:21 brad, <<a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 1/12/20 4:23 PM, Joseph Eisenberg
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="auto">Paris is the capital of France because it has
all the main government facilities: the legislature, the
executive, the judiciary and most ministries.</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Routes that are mapped in Openstreetmap need to be
signed or marked in a visible way. Otherwise every Stava user
will add their favorite training loop to the map as a running
route or road cycling route.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Joseph</div>
</blockquote>
I think this is an overreaction. There are many routes that meet
the wiki description (and my own reasonableness test) that are not
signed or marked. I do see many routes in my area that should not
be routes, but that is only a minor annoyance. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:02
AM Florimond Berthoux <<a href="mailto:florimond.berthoux@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">florimond.berthoux@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Asking me how do I know that Eurovelo 3 is for
tourism or bicycle trekking is like asking me how do I
know that Paris is the capital of France.</div>
<div>« Is there a sign saying that Paris is the capital of
France? May be we should remove that tag, don't you
think?... »<br>
</div>
<br>
You don't need sign post to have a route, do you have a
sign post at the intersection of those routes ?<br>
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/45.1485/-4.1705" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/45.1485/-4.1705</a><br>
<div>I doubt that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is how the Wiki define a route:<br>
« A <strong>route</strong> is a customary or regular
line of passage or travel, often predetermined and
publicized. Routes consist of paths taken repeatedly by
people and vehicles: a ship on the North Atlantic route,
a car on a numbered road, a bus on its route or a
cyclist on a national route. »</div>
<div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So to paraphrase this for road biking route :</div>
<div>« A road bicycle <strong>route</strong> is a
customary or regular line of passage or travel, often
predetermined and publicized as such. Road bicycle
routes consist of paths taken repeatedly by road
cyclist. »</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And if you don't know then don't tag it and don't
manage it.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
Le sam. 11 janv. 2020 à 23:35, Joseph Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
><br>
> > I am not against distinguishing more types of
cycling routes, I am all for it, as long as it's
verifyable, mappable with clear tagging, and manageable.<br>
><br>
> +1<br>
><br>
> I started using Openstreetmap because I wanted to add
touring routes<br>
> and recreational bike routes in RideWithGPS and then
found out that<br>
> <a href="http://ridewithgps.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ridewithgps.com</a> uses
Openstreetmap data which I could edit. And<br>
> I get to work and take kids to school and shop by
bike - I haven't<br>
> owned a car for 9 years.<br>
><br>
> So I would love to have more information about what
streets and roads<br>
> are best for getting from point A to B, and which
ones are nice for<br>
> training rides and which ones are fun for tours.<br>
><br>
> But tags have to be verifiable: if the next mapper
can't confirm that<br>
> a tag as right, the data in Openstreetmap will not be
maintained<br>
> properly. Subjective tags cannot work.<br>
><br>
> I have seen this happen: before I mapped here, I used
to try to<br>
> improve the bike routes in Portland Oregon for Google
Maps. But since<br>
> there was no definition of a "preferred" bicycle
street, and it was<br>
> hard to delete a preferred route once it was added,
the bike layer was<br>
> full of disconnected segments. Some were from old
city maps of bike<br>
> routes, some were based on the personal preference of
the mapper, and<br>
> some were actually signed or marked on the ground,
but you couldn't<br>
> tell them apart.<br>
><br>
> If there is a sign or marking that specifies that a
certain route is<br>
> designed for mountain bikes or for bike racing, then
sure, you can tag<br>
> that. But most bike routes do not have anything to
specify that they<br>
> are more for commuting or more for recreation, and in
that case we<br>
> can't tag the distinction.<br>
><br>
> Fortunately, database users (like routing
applications) can look at<br>
> other Openstreetmap data, like surface=* tags on
ways, and external<br>
> data like elevation models, to determine if a route
is a difficult<br>
> single-track trail through the hills versus a flat
paved path along a<br>
> canal, and use this to help route cyclists
appropriately.<br>
><br>
> - Joseph Eisenberg<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Florimond Berthoux</div>
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