<div dir="ltr">Ah, I see. You are talking about cycling on the sidewalk. Indeed, very unusual in Nederland. To me it's strange to tag continuous_sidewalk mainly for cycling. <div><br><div>You talk of junction=continuous_sidewalk, I see no reason to even consider that.</div><div>If you have a cycleway, footway or footcycleway around a roundabout, it still has crossings with the roads.which can and often will differ, so IMO the crossing nodes would carry the attributes. </div><div><br></div><div>Well, I have given my thoughts, good luck with the proposal!</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Best, Peter Elderson</div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op za 25 jan. 2020 om 17:28 schreef Florimond Berthoux <<a href="mailto:florimond.berthoux@gmail.com">florimond.berthoux@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 25 janv. 2020 à 15:19, Peter Elderson <<a href="mailto:pelderson@gmail.com" target="_blank">pelderson@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Florimond Berthoux <<a href="mailto:florimond.berthoux@gmail.com" target="_blank">florimond.berthoux@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>With a table the pedestrians have to cross the road, it is the opposite for the continuous sidewalk that's why I'm in favor to add a new value<br></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>traffic_calming=continuous_sidewalk</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, any crossing involves different ways crossing each other, and should be considered from all angles involved. A way can't cross another way without being crossed itself. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Crossing key is defined as such «This tag is used for more accurately describing specific types of pedestrian crossings across roads»</div><div>Continuous sidewalk is a sidewalk, so pedestrian don't cross a road but a sidewalk, so crossing key cannot be applied.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>Give ways:</div><div>If there is traffic sign or painting you can add a give way tag.</div><div>If there is none, you cannot add a give way, or you would interpret the law which is not on the ground.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Crossing:<br>I thought of using crossing key but there are issues:<br></div><div>- the tag is only for pedestrians crossing the road, where as a continuous sidewalk is a sidewalk cross by cars (though we could change the definition of crossing to embrace more situations)<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would not even consider that a change: as said above, a way can't cross another way without being crossed by the other way.
</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>- continuous cycleways exist too (and it’s the main reason I’d like to tag them)<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div>In Nederland, cycleways tend to be continuous by design, but that does not imply anything. All the regular traffic rules apply. Only continuous pedestrian surface (including elevation, pavement, lining) is significant. It is in effect a pedestrian area or living street, where other traffic is tolerated but has no rights. Also, traffic coming from an area like that has no priority whatsoever. Movements of vehicles on the pavement are considered "special manoeuvres" and the driver has to give way to all others.<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes in Netherland you don't know what crossing a kurb every 50m on bicycle means, but there is a difference of having the cycleway going down to join the level of the road and crossing it than having the cycleway staying higher than the road on a cycleway.<br></div><div></div><div>not continuous : <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=52.10055&lng=5.086457999999993&z=18.24231017301564&pKey=ZoLEx4v54zKtpXwEAiT_nw&focus=photo" target="_blank">https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=52.10055&lng=5.086457999999993&z=18.24231017301564&pKey=ZoLEx4v54zKtpXwEAiT_nw&focus=photo</a> </div><div>5m further continuous : <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=52.100289999999944&lng=5.086368999999991&z=18.24231017301564&pKey=_hSpfQK3eiU4HbKEEFePIw&focus=photo" target="_blank">https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=52.100289999999944&lng=5.086368999999991&z=18.24231017301564&pKey=_hSpfQK3eiU4HbKEEFePIw&focus=photo</a></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr"><div></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>- it collides with continuous sidewalk, you may have continuous sidewalk and a crossing, it’s not a normal case but I have at least one example in Paris where zebras were added on a continuous sidewalk, hence the need for another tag.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This would just be extra lining to emphasize priority for pedestrians. It looks like a zebra but It would still be a "continuous_sidewalk" crossing. Calling it a zebra crossing while it is continuous sidewalk would send the wrong message.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, I want to tag both features, I not here to interpret the world, the law or else, I just want to say there is a continuous sidewalk with zebra on it.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>For the moment my concern is about would it be possible to have tag collision with junction.</div><div>And I just realize that a cycleway can be a junction=roundabout, and being continuous at the intersection with roads in and out of the roundabout.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That is very common around here for cycleways around a roundabout, but it doesn't mean anything unless traffic signs (stop signs, give_way signs or shark's teeth) are present. Pedestrian roundabouts, .i.e. continous sidwalk around a roundabout, I have never seen that, but if present, it would imply absolute priority for pedestrians and nothing for cyclists! </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>So I guess we have to create a key.<br></div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't see how that follows from your arguments! </div><div>A node on the way where it crosses the middle line of the continuous pavement (whether drawn as a way or not) tagged with either traffic_calming=continous_sidewalk or crossing=continuous_sidewalk) covers all cases mentioned, I think. Just an extra value.</div><div><br></div><div>I think that would be enough for basic rendering, routing and traffic-oriented maps.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You'll not be able to tag a roundabout on the ways of a cycleway (junction=roundabout) and tag on the way of the continuous cycleway (junction=continuous_sidewalk) since it already have junction=roundabout, two feature on the same tag -> collision.<br></div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Florimond Berthoux</div></div>
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