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<p>Just using the entry for your place, do you really think that an
entry like say</p>
<p>Swiss High German<span class="wikibase-labelview-text"> Härnösand</span></p>
<p><span class="wikibase-labelview-text">makes sense? (Swiss High
German is de-CH).</span></p>
<p><span class="wikibase-labelview-text">Simon<br>
</span>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.03.2020 um 10:07 schrieb
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pangose@riseup.net">pangose@riseup.net</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BA5B40F3-D5AB-4F48-B484-C1BDA6B72387@riseup.net">
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Hi Simon.<br>
<br>
Do you have a link? The Municipality I live in has sensible names
in WD <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427</a><br>
<br>
Does it matter to us in OSM if it "has the name"? I'm thinking
that we outsource all the naming to WD to deal with and fight
over.<br>
In OSM we could instead concentrate on e.g. what language codes to
display on osm.org e.g. name_osm=sv for a city with dominant
Swedish population and name_osm=se for a town/city where most are
Sami.<br>
In the case of double naming on the ground we could have something
like: name_osm= code1 / code2<br>
Where code1 is the e.g. the Welsh and code2 is the English name.<br>
<br>
The idea in these cases is the we get rid of all other name tags
that can be stored and curated better in WD.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On March 25, 2020 10:48:45 PM GMT+01:00,
Simon Poole <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:simon@poole.ch"><simon@poole.ch></a> wrote:
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<p>Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are
simply derived from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page
has to have, but it doesn't imply that the object actually
has a name in the language of the wikipedia you are looking
at). For example the municipality I live in has a German and
a Swiss-German name, it -doesn't- have names in any of the
other 31 languages that are listed.</p>
<p>Simon<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:pangose@riseup.net" moz-do-not-send="true">pangose@riseup.net</a>:<br>
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cite="mid:160D79E6-2CF2-4CDC-8091-2D276BFE4E41@riseup.net">
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Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names
at all on objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are
just too small a community to keep this updated and it has
little value to duplicate to the efforts made by others. <br>
If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name
tags according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no
Wikidata item it should be found/created.<br>
It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical
data from OSM and query the names the user wants to see from
WD.<br>
This offloads a huge burden as I see it.<br>
All our tools that currently invites our users to include a
name could be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is
about geodata and names are for WD and best stored/updated
there.<br>
If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the
bulk of these problems. <br>
When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages
already present in WD.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM
GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:andrewhainosm@hotmail.co.uk"
moz-do-not-send="true"><andrewhainosm@hotmail.co.uk></a>
wrote:
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padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional
copyright issues) want to have lots of different
name:XX tags?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Andrew<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Frederik Ramm <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:frederik@remote.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><frederik@remote.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 March 2020 09:26<br>
<b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related
tools <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><tagging@openstreetmap.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Tagging] Which languages are
admissible for name:xx tags?</font>
<div> </div>
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<div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span
style="font-size:11pt;">
<div class="PlainText">Hi,<br>
<br>
the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception
in OSM because while we<br>
defer to "local knowledge" as the
highest-ranking source normally, this<br>
is not being done for name:xx tags. It is
possible for no single citizen<br>
of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian
name, but still a Russian<br>
name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking
source for that?<br>
<br>
My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM
actually represent a<br>
unique name in its own right; all others are
either copies of the name<br>
tag ("this city does not have its own name in
language XX but I want<br>
every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just
copy the name tag"), or<br>
transliterations (or, worst case, even literal
translations).<br>
<br>
A while ago we had a longer discussion about
Esperanto names; in that<br>
discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto
could be in the name tag<br>
but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is
ok, even though<br>
Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed")
language.<br>
<br>
Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon
names to countries in OSM. I<br>
have reverted that because of a copyright issue,
but I think we also<br>
need to discuss which languages we want to
accept for name:xx tags.<br>
<br>
In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be
added if you can demonstrate<br>
that people natively speaking the living
language xx are actually using<br>
this name for this entity. I think we have a
very unhealthy inflation of<br>
names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose
mappers" - they come in,<br>
stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto
everything, and go away<br>
again. Nobody knows if these names are even
correct, and nobody cares<br>
for their maintenance. The country North
Macedonia changed its name<br>
almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~
170 name tags are still<br>
what they were before this change. Nobody cares;
these names suggest a<br>
data richness that is not backed up by an actual
living community that<br>
cares for them.<br>
<br>
What are your opinions on which languages should
be accepted in name<br>
tags? What do you think about<br>
<br>
* niche constructed languages (say, FredLang
which has 2 words I<br>
invented just now)<br>
* popular constructed languages (Klingon,
Elvish) - note place names in<br>
these languages will often be algorithmically
derived from the English<br>
or local name<br>
* "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)<br>
* languages that once existed but are not
natively spoken any more (Roman)<br>
* languages that are natively spoken but their
speakers do not have<br>
their own name for the entity in question
(instead they use the same<br>
name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a
different alphabet)<br>
* ...<br>
<br>
Or if you don't have the time to think about
this in detail, just answer<br>
the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?<br>
<br>
Bye<br>
Frederik<br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
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