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<body>Hi Simon.<br><br>Do you have a link? The Municipality I live in has sensible names in WD <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427">https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427</a><br><br>Does it matter to us in OSM if it "has the name"? I'm thinking that we outsource all the naming to WD to deal with and fight over.<br>In OSM we could instead concentrate on e.g. what language codes to display on osm.org e.g. name_osm=sv for a city with dominant Swedish population and name_osm=se for a town/city where most are Sami.<br>In the case of double naming on the ground we could have something like: name_osm= code1 / code2<br>Where code1 is the e.g. the Welsh and code2 is the English name.<br><br>The idea in these cases is the we get rid of all other name tags that can be stored and curated better in WD.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On March 25, 2020 10:48:45 PM GMT+01:00, Simon Poole <simon@poole.ch> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<p>Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are simply
derived from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page has to have,
but it doesn't imply that the object actually has a name in the
language of the wikipedia you are looking at). For example the
municipality I live in has a German and a Swiss-German name, it
-doesn't- have names in any of the other 31 languages that are
listed.</p>
<p>Simon<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pangose@riseup.net">pangose@riseup.net</a>:<br>
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Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at all
on objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too small a
community to keep this updated and it has little value to
duplicate to the efforts made by others. <br>
If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags
according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata item
it should be found/created.<br>
It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data from
OSM and query the names the user wants to see from WD.<br>
This offloads a huge burden as I see it.<br>
All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name
could be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about
geodata and names are for WD and best stored/updated there.<br>
If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk of
these problems. <br>
When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages
already present in WD.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00,
Andrew Hain <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andrewhainosm@hotmail.co.uk"><andrewhainosm@hotmail.co.uk></a> wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
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padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional
copyright issues) want to have lots of different name:XX
tags?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Andrew<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Frederik Ramm <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:frederik@remote.org"><frederik@remote.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 March 2020 09:26<br>
<b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org"><tagging@openstreetmap.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Tagging] Which languages are admissible
for name:xx tags?</font>
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<div class="PlainText">Hi,<br>
<br>
the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in
OSM because while we<br>
defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking
source normally, this<br>
is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for
no single citizen<br>
of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but
still a Russian<br>
name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source
for that?<br>
<br>
My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM
actually represent a<br>
unique name in its own right; all others are either
copies of the name<br>
tag ("this city does not have its own name in language
XX but I want<br>
every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the
name tag"), or<br>
transliterations (or, worst case, even literal
translations).<br>
<br>
A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto
names; in that<br>
discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could
be in the name tag<br>
but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok,
even though<br>
Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.<br>
<br>
Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to
countries in OSM. I<br>
have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I
think we also<br>
need to discuss which languages we want to accept for
name:xx tags.<br>
<br>
In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if
you can demonstrate<br>
that people natively speaking the living language xx
are actually using<br>
this name for this entity. I think we have a very
unhealthy inflation of<br>
names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose
mappers" - they come in,<br>
stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto
everything, and go away<br>
again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct,
and nobody cares<br>
for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia
changed its name<br>
almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170
name tags are still<br>
what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these
names suggest a<br>
data richness that is not backed up by an actual
living community that<br>
cares for them.<br>
<br>
What are your opinions on which languages should be
accepted in name<br>
tags? What do you think about<br>
<br>
* niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has
2 words I<br>
invented just now)<br>
* popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) -
note place names in<br>
these languages will often be algorithmically derived
from the English<br>
or local name<br>
* "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)<br>
* languages that once existed but are not natively
spoken any more (Roman)<br>
* languages that are natively spoken but their
speakers do not have<br>
their own name for the entity in question (instead
they use the same<br>
name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a
different alphabet)<br>
* ...<br>
<br>
Or if you don't have the time to think about this in
detail, just answer<br>
the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?<br>
<br>
Bye<br>
Frederik<br>
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