<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 at 09:04, Daniel Westergren <<a href="mailto:westis@gmail.com">westis@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>I think the reason that this is so messed up because of the desire
to tag according to function. A trail/path can have many
users/functions, but it's still a dirt path. </div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right. But is there another way? Can we tag dirt paths/wilderness paths/forest paths/mountain paths with another main tag? </div></div></div></blockquote><div>No you cannot inroduce another main tag, because of the existing stock of "path" 8.7 million and "track".(18.7 million). This would only add additional confusion with mappers and an enormous burden on renderers and routers<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Can we somehow "enforce" additional tags for physical characteristics that will tell what this path|footway|cycleway actually looks like? </div></div></div></blockquote><div>We have no way to "enforce" anything in OSM. But, as we do have the necessary tags (maybe to many different ones, but they all are in use.and we need to reamin backaward compatible in view of the enourmous numbers). What we can do and need to do is to improve the description of the various existing tagging options in the wiki (without touching their definition)</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Don't forget dirt
bikes & ATV's (<50 inchs, 127 cm) in this assessment. Many
trails are open to, and used by, everyone including motor
vehicles. Perhaps this just means that footway & cycleway are
non-motorized, and path could be. <br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>We do have a more or less agreed set of <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access_restrictions">default access restrictions tables</a>. We cannot retrospectively change them.. For most countries this sets the default access for "path" to foot|bicycle|horse (in the US also "moped"). Again these default values have been there for a while, hence many millions of paths and tracks are tagged on that base. <br></div><div><br></div><div>One thing you can do for future tagging is to convince the JOSM and iD people to create more specific presets (say an ATV preset which would check that there is a width tag on the path with a value of at least 127cm, and also set the access to motor_vehicle=yes (I don't know if we do already have an ATV vehicle category)<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, something like "and possibly smaller motor vehicles" should be added. In Sweden, for example, cycleways are normally open for smaller mopeds. "...primarily intended for non-motorized vehicles and possibly smaller motor vehicles".</div></div></div></blockquote><div>Tere is so far no table on the above wiki page for Sweden. If moped=yes that is the default situation on cycleways in Sweden, it would be good idea to add a new table for <Sweden with that detail.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>The sermon that keeps getting repeated is don't tag for the
renderer. We shouldn't tag for a lousy renderer, but we should tag
for the user & sometimes the rules laid down are wrong.<br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>We do not have laid down rules, and we cannot create any. The wiki documents what mappers do, <br>I would say we should not define things that make life even more complex to people who design renderers and routers, to mappers, and , last but not least keep the end user in mind.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
I'm OK with taking this off this list & I can add my comments to
the google docs doc. <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ok, I'll email those who have expressed interest in following or participating in the discussion. Suggestions and comments can also be done in the Google Doc.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As said before I would prefer that his discussion remain on one of the tools of the OSM community, mainly for documenting the discussion. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Volker<br></div></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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