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<p>On 2020-07-30 15:05, Alan Mackie wrote:</p>
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<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 13:35, Colin Smale <<a href="mailto:colin.smale@xs4all.nl">colin.smale@xs4all.nl</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p>On 2020-07-30 14:02, Frederik Ramm wrote:You might not like it, but the EU is already a super-state that acts as one, with a federation of states below. I know the whole idea of a "United States of Europe" and a formal federal constitution is toxic, but basically we are already there. What is left to do is to remove the opt-outs and other exceptional treatment afforded to certain states.</p>
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<div>If this is truly the case then we already have a label for this: admin_level=2 (but see below).</div>
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<div>The absolute number of the admin_level is less relevant than the relative position in the hierarchy. The level for the EU must be above (i.e. numerically lower) than the level of its members. If the EU comes in at level 2, then the member states would have to go to level 3 or 4; as many countries already use these levels, it could cause an avalanche of changes and cause the tagging in Europe to get unacceptably out of step with the rest of the world. The EU is a unique construct, so it should not be surprising if it needs a unique solution in OSM.</div>
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<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;">I would prefer to map the EU as a contract than as an administrative<br /> boundary. There are many such contracts around the world, where smaller<br /> countries pool their defense or other typically national capabilities,<br /> and I would not be surprised if there were situations where countries<br /> pool their defense with one group, and their currency with another.<br /> Mapping these things as "areas on the map" is old-style cartographic<br /> thinking. We can do better than that.</div>
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<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;">The EU has laws with direct effect, which override national laws. This pooling of capabilities you refer to would not have any laws of its own - only treaties between countries, which may implement certain measures in their national laws as a consequence. The EU is not like that, it has its own laws, that our representatives get to vote on.</div>
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<div>EU directives generally have to be transposed into national law by all the member states. IIRC it is the copy-pasted law that theoretically holds the power even though the members have all agreed to run everything through the photocopier. Whether this is a tangible thing or just a figleaf is for the lawyers to fight over.</div>
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<div>No, it is extremely clear that some EU directives have direct effect, without any action being required from the member states.</div>
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<div><a href="https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Al14547">https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Al14547</a></div>
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<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;">Even *if* a boundary was mapped, it would probably more pragmatic to map<br /> the outer boundary of the Schengen region than the outer boundary of the<br /> EU states.</div>
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<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;">The Schengen region is DEFINITELY not an admin boundary..... It does not actually exist in a tangible form, only as EU law and treaties of association on paper. It covers only part of the EU, and several non-EU territories.</div>
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<div>I disagree with this, the agents at the border are very tangible.</div>
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<div>The agents at the border don't work for "Schengen" - they work for their national organisations. There is no "Schengen" to employ them. What I meant by tangible was some kind of organisation with people and offices. It also doesn't have its own rules and regulations - they are now part of the aquis communitaire. Changes to "Schengen rules" are just EU law changes like any other. Speaking of border agents, it is actually the absence of such agents (on the internal borders) that characterises Schengen; the presence of immigration officers at the outer boundary just makes it like any "normal" international border.</div>
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<div>(This is why a new EU member state would not have to sign up to Schengen - it would be automatic on accession. If you wanted an opt-out you would have to negotiate for that)</div>
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