<div dir="ltr">fietsstraat / rue cyclable are really 'a thing' in Belgium. Usually the whole street is redesigned, it's not just a traffic sign on both ends. Red asphalt, giant flower pots. Car drivers don't seem to realise that they are not allowed to overtake cyclists in most of them though. So that's a bit disappointing. They pass me by even when I'm going at 25km/h and they are supposedly only allowed to go at 30km/h. I had no idea that their 'properties' were so different in The Netherlands and Germany.<div><br></div><div>I agree that their definitions should probably not be 'exported' to other countries, until such time that something with the same semantics exists there.<br><div><br></div><div>Polyglot</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 2:44 PM Volker Schmidt <<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com">voschix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Yes, there is a legal difference</div><div><br></div><div><u>bicycle_road</u><br></div><div>A German "Fahrradstrasse" (which is the prototype on which this tag seems to be modeled) is a road exclusively for bicycles in the sense that carries the the sign "Fahrradstrasse" without addition indicates that the carriageway of the road is reserved for bicycles, pedestrians, people on skayes, youn children on bicycles need to use the sidewalk (if available). lso an implied speed limit of 30km/h applies.<br></div><div>In my opinion the "naked " German Fahrradstrasse is equivalent to</div><div style="margin-left:40px">highway=service|residential</div><div style="margin-left:40px">vehicle=no</div><div style="margin-left:40px">foot=use_sidewalk or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk<br></div><div style="margin-left:40px">bicycle=designated</div><div style="margin-left:40px">maxspeed=30</div><div>So what do you "save" in tagging with bicycle_road=yes ?</div><div>As far as I can see it replaces "vehicle=no" and "bicycle=designated" with "bicycle_road=yes"</div><div>(the speed limit is not part of the the bicycle_road tag nor is there any indication about pedestrians)<br></div><div><div><div style="margin-left:40px"><br></div><u>cyclestreet</u><div>The prototype cycle street seems to be the Belgian "rue cyclable | fietsstraat" that describes a road that is not wide enough for creating separate cycle lanes or cycleways, hence the carriageway is shared between cyclists and motor vehicles. Motor vehicles are not allowed to overtake bicycles and there is an implicit speed limit of 30km/h</div><div><br></div><div>Such a road would be equivalent to</div><div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">highway=service|residential</div><div style="margin-left:40px">foot=use_sidewalk or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk<br></div><div style="margin-left:40px">maxspeed=30</div><div style="margin-left:40px">overtaking:motorcar=no (this tagging is not defined in the wiki)</div></div><div>What is the "saving" n using the cyclestreet=yes tagging?</div><div>None, as both maxspeed and overtaking restriction are not part of the OSM tah cyclestreet=yes<br></div><div><br></div>Basically I see no need for separate tags like bicycle_road and cyclestreet, as you can easily describe their properties with existing tags. Add to this the confusion between the two tags, and then add to the mix the myriad of variants on the subject in countries other than Germany and Belgium, respectively.</div><div>These two tags should be discouraged.</div><div>As that most likely is not possible, maybe we can at least discourage their "export" to other countries.<br></div><div>
<div><br></div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by <a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank">voschix@gmail.com</a>:<br></div><blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi,<br></div><div>I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:<br></div><div><a href="https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/</a><br></div><div>The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can circulate. <br></div><div>I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).<br></div><div><br></div><div>In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:<br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bicycle_road" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">bicycle_road</a> created <a title="Key:bicycle road" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:bicycle_road&oldid=512933" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">14:54, 7 August 2010</a><br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:cyclestreet" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">cyclestreet</a> created <a title="Key:cyclestreet" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:cyclestreet&oldid=1607471" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">09:58, 9 May 2018</a> <br></div><div><br></div><div>The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas<br></div><div>on a cycle street
"cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"<br></div><div><br></div><div>To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.<br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Taginfo:<br></div><div><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"><a rel="noopener noreferrer">bicycle_road</a>=<a title="Tag:bicycle road=yes" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle_road%3Dyes" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">yes</a></span><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"> 7906</span><br></div></div><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"><a rel="noopener noreferrer">cyclestreet</a>=<a title="Tag:cyclestreet=yes" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cyclestreet%3Dyes" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">yes</a></span> 4076<br></div></span></div><div><span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"></span><br></div></span></span></div><div><span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"><span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Volker </span></span></span><br></div></span></span></div><div><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"><span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Padova, Italy</span></span></span><br></div></div><div><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"></span><br></div></div><div><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"></span><br></div></div><div><div><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"></span><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier new",monospace"></span><br></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div> </div>
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