<div dir="ltr"><div>In the United States at least, there is a very real difference in meaning between "rideshare" and "taxi" services when it comes *specifically* to access at airports. And I believe that is the intent of this proposal: how do I tag the special area in the airport where I must go in order to be picked up by XYZ rideshare company?<br></div><div><br></div><div>At an airport, if you wish to take a taxi, you walk up to a taxi stand (amenity=taxi), where the taxi cabs line up, and you take the first taxi cab in line. This is an explicit area where only taxis queue up.</div><div><br></div><div>Alternately, if you wish to take a "ride share", you are using an app to make an arrangement with a specific vehicle and driver to be picked up at a specific location. In this case, airports often (at this point, probably "usually") have a specified location where such ride shares are allowed to pick up and/or drop off passengers.</div><div><br></div><div>In some cases, the ride share pickup/drop-off locations have specific areas that are different for different ride share providers. For example, at my local airport, due to disagreements about how much these companies should pay the airport for curb access (really), there is one location where you can pick up a Lyft, and a separate location 100 meters away off the airport property where you can pick up an Uber!</div><div><br></div><div>The point here is that in the US there is a very real distinction between these two classes of objects, and the information someone traveling through the airport looking for ground transportation would want to know is:</div><div>1. Is it a ride share (pre-arranged pickup) or taxi stand (on-demand pickup)</div><div>2. Is it limited to only specific ride share companies?</div><div>3. Is it pickup only, dropoff only, or both?</div><div><br></div><div></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 6:36 AM Simon Poole <<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch">simon@poole.ch</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>For starters I would oppose using the term "rideshare" for what
is a taxi/chauffeur service. It should be noted that there are
actual rideshare organisations and services out there, but uber,
grab, lyft etc. are not among them, they are simply trying to
co-opt a term with positive associations for their operations.</p>
<p>Further, real rideshare services don't get special access
treatment anywhere I know of, outside of vehicle occupancy
regulations, which isn't surprising as real ride sharing simply
involves sharing costs and car on a trip that the driver was going
to make anyway.</p>
<p>If there are actual legal differences between taxi and chauffeur
access somewhere, we could use chauffeur or chauffeur-driven as an
access tag (better suggestions welcome).<br>
</p>
<p>Simon<br>
</p>
<div>Am 30.10.2020 um 19:42 schrieb Clare
Corthell via Tagging:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Everyone,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for the input and feedback thus far, any
outstanding commentary is welcome. Amendments to the
proposal include a definition of rideshare, example
companies, and comment responses on the Discussion page.
In-line comments here.</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Anyone who would like to comment or bring up outstanding
questions, please do so for another week. At the end of next
week, this proposal could move to voting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Clare</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 2:41
AM nathan case <<a href="mailto:nathancase@outlook.com" target="_blank">nathancase@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-GB">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Clare: this is a good
discussion to have. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>It seems as though the
emergence of rideshare services is still being
addressed at various legal levels but, at least in
the UK, rideshare vehicles are not classed taxis and
so are not ordinarily entitled to use bus/taxi
lanes. If situations exist where rideshares are
specifically allowed (or not), and that access is
distinct from taxi or a regular motor_vehicle, then
a key should exist to denote that. I note that the
proposal has been updated to reflect such cases.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>> </span>Joseph
Eisenberg: But you will also need to add a definition
of a "rideshare vehicle", since this will need to be
translated for places where Lyft and Uber do not
operate, and where English is not used (e.g.
Indonesia). Unfortunately I don't see a good online
source for a definition.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Perhaps such definitions are
dependent upon local/national legislation. In your
follow on examples, do those services enjoy the same
access rights as PSVs? If yes, then perhaps they
should simply be covered by that tag? If they do
not, do they have any additional or fewer access
rights than simply motor_vehicle/cycle? If not, then
perhaps they should simply be covered by those
respective tags?</span> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The legal designation could derive from venue/airport,
local, county, state, or federal law. Just as u-turns are
always technically legal in California unless prohibited,
while in Washington they are prohibited unless permitted,
there are local laws that are required to fully
contextualize map data but are not represented within it. I
don't foresee rideshare being default prohibited, so perhaps
the example is too extreme, but nevertheless the goal is to
encode the specific implications of local law for a given
rideshare vehicle rather than law generally.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-GB">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>So a definition could be
something along the lines of: “A private hire
vehicle, often booked through an online service or a
mobile application, that does not enjoy the same
legal standing as a taxi service. Exact definition
may depend on local law but usually denotes services
such as Uber and Lyft.” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>A taxi that also takes
bookings/collects fares via an app is still a taxi,
in my opinion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Nathan</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Joseph Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com" target="_blank">joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 15, 2020 12:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related
tools <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC
- Rideshare Access</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clare,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The "proposal" section
currently fails to include the actual proposal:
that is, what new key and tags are you proposing
to use?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">It
looks like the proposal is: "approve the use of
the new key "rideshare=" with values "yes" and
"no" to specify legal access for rideshare
vehicles."</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>For the possible values, the expectation is that these
include <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#List_of_possible_values" target="_blank">typical values</a>
for other vehicle access, such as {yes, no, designated,
local, destination}. We typically encounter cases where the
first two values are useful, as noted in the proposal. Cases
of "designated" or "destination" access for rideshare
vehicles are both plausible and possible. Possible keys are
indicated in the existing Access page.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-GB">
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But you will also need to add a
definition of a "rideshare vehicle", since this
will need to be translated for places where Lyft
and Uber do not operate, and where English is not
used (e.g. Indonesia). Unfortunately I don't see a
good online source for a definition.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is a Gojek motorcycle a
rideshare vehicle? See <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojek" target="_blank">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojek</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What about pedicabs (tricycles)
which are hailed with a smartphone app?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Or should only passenger cars
be included?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What about taxis which also get
fares via an app?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- Joseph Eisenberg</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:44 PM
Clare Corthell via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Hi
Tagging List,</span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Here
is the RFC for the proposal for rideshare
vehicle access:</span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Proposal:
</span><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access</span></a><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Discussion:
</span><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access</span></a><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">This
proposes the addition of rideshare as a
use-based access mode for land-based
transportation. This would enable mapping
restriction or permission of rideshare
vehicles to nodes and ways. As mentioned in
the proposal </span><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access#Case_.231:_Denver_Airport" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">example
cases</span></a><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">,
this typically arises in dense traffic
patterns such as airport pickup zones.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">This
proposal originated from the experience of the
Lyft mapping team seeking to improve the
accuracy of routes we build from an OSM-based
map. Because our rideshare operations are
North America based, we bring a perspective
that centers the policy for right-of-way in
this context. We would especially appreciate
feedback on the applicability of this tagging
to other parts of the world.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Looking
forward to your commentary and feedback.</span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Clare</span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"></span></p>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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