<div dir="ltr">Hidde thank you for the resources. I am aware of them. Also thank you for mentioning Osm2pgsql. I know what it is, but your comment about how it's meant compile relational data vs. how the OSM DB isn't is very true.<div><br></div><div>Thank you for the clarification too Peter. </div><div><br></div><div>I guess I'm just obsessed with relational DB models.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 12:23 PM Peter Elderson <<a href="mailto:pelderson@gmail.com">pelderson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">AFAIK, a relation is meant to represent an entity of its own, which can be observed and verified in the field. <div>Its tags should be the tags of this entity, not the tags shared by the members. It's not a relational database model.</div><div><br></div><div>If many streets are called "Polygon Alley" you tag each one with name=Polygon Alley. No normalization applies, just tag it.</div><div><div>Best, Peter Elderson<div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op ma 16 nov. 2020 om 18:17 schreef Seth Deegan <<a href="mailto:jayandseth@gmail.com" target="_blank">jayandseth@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Honestly I think I'm just confused. <div>I guess ways <i>do have</i> official names, it's just that I keep on thinking about the possible <i>conceptual</i> conflicts between two different Routes under one way (this statement probably doesn't make sense).<div><br></div></div><div>Also, I'm someone who loves relations and finds myself thinking about putting all of the elements that share a tag under a relation constantly!</div><div>I guess just keeping them in their original Ways is the way to go. </div><div><br></div><div>However, <i>if there was a way</i> to indicate the "primary" relation for a Way, then I'd be all for it. </div><div>IDK. Save space wherever possible seems to be the common theme. </div><div>Problems with this though would be that renderers/data consumers would have to go into the relation every time they want to find more tags for an element.</div><div>There are pros and cons. I'm also aware relations aren't categories.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for the clarification.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:55 AM Hidde Wieringa <<a href="mailto:hidde@hiddewieringa.nl" target="_blank">hidde@hiddewieringa.nl</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Hello,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Route relations 'group' together the
nodes/ways/relations that form a cycling route. The
nodes/ways/relations themselves should not be tagged with the name
of the route, like you quoted the wiki.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The name of a way should be the
official name of the way, not the name of the relation(s) that way
is part of. I refer to Key:name [1] which states "The names should
be restricted to the name of the item in question only and should
not include additional information not contained in the official
name such as categories, types, descriptions, addresses, refs, or
notes."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the question remains for the ways
you mention that are tagged with name of the cycling route. Are
those ways officially named exactly as the relation name? If not,
I would classify this situation as 'tagging for the renderer'
(getting the renderer to show the name of the cycling route).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the subject of rendering: there are
many renderers that show cycling route relations [2]. Some of them
[3] are even advanced enough to grasp the concept of
'superroutes'/'parentroutes' [4] that are common when tagging
gigantic routes that span Europe like the EuroVelo cycling routes
[5].<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,<br>
<i>Hidde Wieringa</i><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[1] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name</a></div>
<div>[2] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Rendered_cycle_maps" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Rendered_cycle_maps</a></div>
<div>[3] <a href="https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org" target="_blank">https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org</a></div>
<div>[4] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:superroute" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:superroute</a><br>
</div>
[5]
<a href="https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2763798&map=4!57.9189!7.9873" target="_blank">https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2763798&map=4!57.9189!7.9873<br>
</a>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 16-11-2020 17:17, Seth Deegan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">The
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Tagging_cycle_route_networks" target="_blank">Cycle Routes Wiki Page</a> states:</p>
<dl style="margin-top:0.2em;margin-bottom:0.5em;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<dd style="margin-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.1em;margin-right:0px">"It
is preferred to tag the cycle routes using relations instead
of tagging the ways."</dd>
</dl>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">If
I come across a route that has the Ways already tagged with
the <tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">name</a>=*</tt> of the route, can I
delete the <tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">name</a>=*</tt>s in the Ways and
just create a Route Relation with the name?</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
assume this is not prefered because a number of applications
use the names in the Ways themselves and not the Route
Relation, most notably osm-carto.</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">However,
some benefits of doing this might be:</p>
<ul style="margin:0.3em 0px 0px 1.6em;padding:0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">Takes up less space in the DB</li>
<li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">More tags that apply to the
whole coute could be added to the Relation like <tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface" title="Key:surface" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">surface</a>=*</tt> and <tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source" title="Key:source" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">source</a>=*</tt> (like the
official map of the route).</li>
<li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">Ways with two or more routes
wouldn't be tagged <tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">name</a>=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:name%3Droute_1_%26_route_2&action=edit&redlink=1" title="Tag:name=route 1 & route 2
(page does not exist)" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(165,88,88);background:none" target="_blank">route 1 & route 2</a></tt> and
instead have their respective Relations. This could help
with preferred routing/data usage in general.</li>
</ul>
<div><font face="sans-serif" color="#202122"><span style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
would propose that <i>all</i> routes and their names should be
tagged in a Relation and <i>never</i> the Ways, even if the
Route Relation only has <i>one member</i>. </p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">This
way data consumers know that all Routes are going to be
relations. Also future Routes mapped that share the Way of a
Route that does not have Relation, won't require the mapper to
shift all of the data stored in the Way to a new Relation. </p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Also,
if <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:street" title="Proposed features/Relation:street" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">Proposed features/Relation:street</a> is
ever approved, this would help establish a consistent OSM-wide
routing standard.</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b><br>
</b></p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b>As
for now</b>, I do not think that we should be deleting the <tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">name</a>=*</tt>s of Ways. However,
I think osm-carto <i>should</i> render and <i>prefer</i> to
render Relation names for Cycle routes over the names of the
Ways. The Editors should also somehow influence users to map
Relations for Cycle routes instead of naming them.</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Thoughts?</p>
<div>Seth Deegan (lectrician1)</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Thanks,<div>Seth</div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Thanks,<div>Seth</div></div></div>