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    <p>You indicate that you are aware that relations aren't categories
      [1]. So indeed, grouping elements which share a certain tag is not
      useful. Finding nodes/ways that contain a certain tag is easily
      possible with specialized query tooling such as the Overpass API
      [2]. Data duplication across elements is not really an issue, and
      simplicity and correctness are more important.</p>
    <p>What do you mean by the "primary relation for a way"? Relations
      group elements together, and as such a way can be part of any
      number of relations. The way itself does not 'know' if it is part
      of any relations (although you could query such information).</p>
    <p>I want to mention tools like Osm2pgsql [3] which transforms the
      OSM data model to a relational database such as PostgreSQL. You
      can import vast amounts of data and pre-process it for your
      specific application if you so desire. You could group certain
      information together if your use-case would benefit from it.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Kind regards,<br>
      <i>Hidde Wieringa</i></p>
    <p>[1]
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories</a><br>
      [2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dev.overpass-api.de/overpass-doc/en/">https://dev.overpass-api.de/overpass-doc/en/</a><br>
      [3] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://osm2pgsql.org/">https://osm2pgsql.org/</a><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>On 16-11-2020 18:13, Seth Deegan wrote:</p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAk9NOK9ECfR72Vqa9sCwsVg4-F8zc3jc_kB+aTTYaBUL9fZnQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Honestly I think I'm just confused. 
        <div>I guess ways <i>do have</i> official names, it's just that
          I keep on thinking about the possible <i>conceptual</i> conflicts
          between two different Routes under one way (this statement
          probably doesn't make sense).
          <div><br>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div>Also, I'm someone who loves relations and finds myself
          thinking about putting all of the elements that share a tag
          under a relation constantly!</div>
        <div>I guess just keeping them in their original Ways is the
          way to go. </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>However, <i>if there was a way</i> to indicate the
          "primary" relation for a Way, then I'd be all for it. </div>
        <div>IDK. Save space wherever possible seems to be the common
          theme. </div>
        <div>Problems with this though would be that renderers/data
          consumers would have to go into the relation every time they
          want to find more tags for an element.</div>
        <div>There are pros and cons. I'm also aware relations aren't
          categories.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Thank you for the clarification.</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:55
          AM Hidde Wieringa <<a href="mailto:hidde@hiddewieringa.nl"
            moz-do-not-send="true">hidde@hiddewieringa.nl</a>> wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            <div>Hello,</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Route relations 'group' together the
              nodes/ways/relations that form a cycling route. The
              nodes/ways/relations themselves should not be tagged with
              the name of the route, like you quoted the wiki.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>The name of a way should be the official name of the
              way, not the name of the relation(s) that way is part of.
              I refer to Key:name [1] which states "The names should be
              restricted to the name of the item in question only and
              should not include additional information not contained in
              the official name such as categories, types, descriptions,
              addresses, refs, or notes."</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So the question remains for the ways you mention that
              are tagged with name of the cycling route. Are those ways
              officially named exactly as the relation name? If not, I
              would classify this situation as 'tagging for the
              renderer' (getting the renderer to show the name of the
              cycling route).</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>On the subject of rendering: there are many renderers
              that show cycling route relations [2]. Some of them [3]
              are even advanced enough to grasp the concept of
              'superroutes'/'parentroutes' [4] that are common when
              tagging gigantic routes that span Europe like the EuroVelo
              cycling routes [5].<br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Kind regards,<br>
              <i>Hidde Wieringa</i><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>[1] <a
                href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name</a></div>
            <div>[2] <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Rendered_cycle_maps"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Rendered_cycle_maps</a></div>
            <div>[3] <a href="https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org</a></div>
            <div>[4] <a
                href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:superroute"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:superroute</a><br>
            </div>
            [5] <a
href="https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2763798&map=4!57.9189!7.9873"
              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2763798&map=4!57.9189!7.9873<br>
            </a>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <div>On 16-11-2020 17:17, Seth Deegan wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">The
                  <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Tagging_cycle_route_networks"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Cycle Routes
                    Wiki Page</a> states:</p>
                <dl
style="margin-top:0.2em;margin-bottom:0.5em;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
                  <dd
                    style="margin-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.1em;margin-right:0px">"It
                    is preferred to tag the cycle routes using relations
                    instead of tagging the ways."</dd>
                </dl>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">If
                  I come across a route that has the Ways already tagged
                  with the <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
                      style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=*</tt> of
                  the route, can I delete the <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
                      style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=*</tt>s
                  in the Ways and just create a Route Relation with the
                  name?</p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
                  assume this is not prefered because a number of
                  applications use the names in the Ways themselves and
                  not the Route Relation, most notably osm-carto.</p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">However,
                  some benefits of doing this might be:</p>
                <ul style="margin:0.3em 0px 0px
1.6em;padding:0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
                  <li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">Takes up less space in
                    the DB</li>
                  <li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">More tags that apply
                    to the whole coute could be added to the Relation
                    like <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
                        title="Key:surface"
                        style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">surface</a>=*</tt> and <tt
                      dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source" title="Key:source"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">source</a>=*</tt> (like
                    the official map of the route).</li>
                  <li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">Ways with two or more
                    routes wouldn't be tagged <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
                        style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:name%3Droute_1_%26_route_2&action=edit&redlink=1"
                        title="Tag:name=route 1 & route 2 (page does
                        not exist)"
                        style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(165,88,88);background:none"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">route 1
                        & route 2</a></tt> and instead have their
                    respective Relations. This could help with preferred
                    routing/data usage in general.</li>
                </ul>
                <div><font face="sans-serif" color="#202122"><span
                      style="font-size:14px"><br>
                    </span></font></div>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
                  would propose that <i>all</i> routes and their names
                  should be tagged in a Relation and <i>never</i> the
                  Ways, even if the Route Relation only has <i>one
                    member</i>. </p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">This
                  way data consumers know that all Routes are going to
                  be relations. Also future Routes mapped that share the
                  Way of a Route that does not have Relation, won't
                  require the mapper to shift all of the data stored in
                  the Way to a new Relation. </p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Also,
                  if <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:street"
                    title="Proposed features/Relation:street"
                    style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Proposed
                    features/Relation:street</a> is ever approved, this
                  would help establish a consistent OSM-wide routing
                  standard.</p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b><br>
                  </b></p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b>As
                    for now</b>, I do not think that we should be
                  deleting the <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
                      style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=*</tt>s
                  of Ways. However, I think osm-carto <i>should</i>
                  render and <i>prefer</i> to render Relation names for
                  Cycle routes over the names of the Ways. The Editors
                  should also somehow influence users to map Relations
                  for Cycle routes instead of naming them.</p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
                </p>
                <p style="margin:0.5em
                  0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Thoughts?</p>
                <div>Seth Deegan (lectrician1)</div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <fieldset></fieldset>
              <pre>_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          Tagging mailing list<br>
          <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
            moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
          <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br clear="all">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      -- <br>
      <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
        <div dir="ltr">Thanks,
          <div>Seth</div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
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