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<p>You indicate that you are aware that relations aren't categories
[1]. So indeed, grouping elements which share a certain tag is not
useful. Finding nodes/ways that contain a certain tag is easily
possible with specialized query tooling such as the Overpass API
[2]. Data duplication across elements is not really an issue, and
simplicity and correctness are more important.</p>
<p>What do you mean by the "primary relation for a way"? Relations
group elements together, and as such a way can be part of any
number of relations. The way itself does not 'know' if it is part
of any relations (although you could query such information).</p>
<p>I want to mention tools like Osm2pgsql [3] which transforms the
OSM data model to a relational database such as PostgreSQL. You
can import vast amounts of data and pre-process it for your
specific application if you so desire. You could group certain
information together if your use-case would benefit from it.<br>
</p>
<p>Kind regards,<br>
<i>Hidde Wieringa</i></p>
<p>[1]
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories</a><br>
[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dev.overpass-api.de/overpass-doc/en/">https://dev.overpass-api.de/overpass-doc/en/</a><br>
[3] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://osm2pgsql.org/">https://osm2pgsql.org/</a><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 16-11-2020 18:13, Seth Deegan wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAk9NOK9ECfR72Vqa9sCwsVg4-F8zc3jc_kB+aTTYaBUL9fZnQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Honestly I think I'm just confused.
<div>I guess ways <i>do have</i> official names, it's just that
I keep on thinking about the possible <i>conceptual</i> conflicts
between two different Routes under one way (this statement
probably doesn't make sense).
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Also, I'm someone who loves relations and finds myself
thinking about putting all of the elements that share a tag
under a relation constantly!</div>
<div>I guess just keeping them in their original Ways is the
way to go. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, <i>if there was a way</i> to indicate the
"primary" relation for a Way, then I'd be all for it. </div>
<div>IDK. Save space wherever possible seems to be the common
theme. </div>
<div>Problems with this though would be that renderers/data
consumers would have to go into the relation every time they
want to find more tags for an element.</div>
<div>There are pros and cons. I'm also aware relations aren't
categories.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for the clarification.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:55
AM Hidde Wieringa <<a href="mailto:hidde@hiddewieringa.nl"
moz-do-not-send="true">hidde@hiddewieringa.nl</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Hello,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Route relations 'group' together the
nodes/ways/relations that form a cycling route. The
nodes/ways/relations themselves should not be tagged with
the name of the route, like you quoted the wiki.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The name of a way should be the official name of the
way, not the name of the relation(s) that way is part of.
I refer to Key:name [1] which states "The names should be
restricted to the name of the item in question only and
should not include additional information not contained in
the official name such as categories, types, descriptions,
addresses, refs, or notes."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the question remains for the ways you mention that
are tagged with name of the cycling route. Are those ways
officially named exactly as the relation name? If not, I
would classify this situation as 'tagging for the
renderer' (getting the renderer to show the name of the
cycling route).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the subject of rendering: there are many renderers
that show cycling route relations [2]. Some of them [3]
are even advanced enough to grasp the concept of
'superroutes'/'parentroutes' [4] that are common when
tagging gigantic routes that span Europe like the EuroVelo
cycling routes [5].<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,<br>
<i>Hidde Wieringa</i><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[1] <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name</a></div>
<div>[2] <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Rendered_cycle_maps"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Rendered_cycle_maps</a></div>
<div>[3] <a href="https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org</a></div>
<div>[4] <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:superroute"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:superroute</a><br>
</div>
[5] <a
href="https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2763798&map=4!57.9189!7.9873"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2763798&map=4!57.9189!7.9873<br>
</a>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 16-11-2020 17:17, Seth Deegan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">The
<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Tagging_cycle_route_networks"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Cycle Routes
Wiki Page</a> states:</p>
<dl
style="margin-top:0.2em;margin-bottom:0.5em;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<dd
style="margin-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.1em;margin-right:0px">"It
is preferred to tag the cycle routes using relations
instead of tagging the ways."</dd>
</dl>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">If
I come across a route that has the Ways already tagged
with the <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=*</tt> of
the route, can I delete the <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=*</tt>s
in the Ways and just create a Route Relation with the
name?</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
assume this is not prefered because a number of
applications use the names in the Ways themselves and
not the Route Relation, most notably osm-carto.</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">However,
some benefits of doing this might be:</p>
<ul style="margin:0.3em 0px 0px
1.6em;padding:0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">Takes up less space in
the DB</li>
<li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">More tags that apply
to the whole coute could be added to the Relation
like <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
title="Key:surface"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">surface</a>=*</tt> and <tt
dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source" title="Key:source"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">source</a>=*</tt> (like
the official map of the route).</li>
<li style="margin-bottom:0.1em">Ways with two or more
routes wouldn't be tagged <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:name%3Droute_1_%26_route_2&action=edit&redlink=1"
title="Tag:name=route 1 & route 2 (page does
not exist)"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(165,88,88);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">route 1
& route 2</a></tt> and instead have their
respective Relations. This could help with preferred
routing/data usage in general.</li>
</ul>
<div><font face="sans-serif" color="#202122"><span
style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">I
would propose that <i>all</i> routes and their names
should be tagged in a Relation and <i>never</i> the
Ways, even if the Route Relation only has <i>one
member</i>. </p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">This
way data consumers know that all Routes are going to
be relations. Also future Routes mapped that share the
Way of a Route that does not have Relation, won't
require the mapper to shift all of the data stored in
the Way to a new Relation. </p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Also,
if <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:street"
title="Proposed features/Relation:street"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Proposed
features/Relation:street</a> is ever approved, this
would help establish a consistent OSM-wide routing
standard.</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b><br>
</b></p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b>As
for now</b>, I do not think that we should be
deleting the <tt dir="ltr"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name"
style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">name</a>=*</tt>s
of Ways. However, I think osm-carto <i>should</i>
render and <i>prefer</i> to render Relation names for
Cycle routes over the names of the Ways. The Editors
should also somehow influence users to map Relations
for Cycle routes instead of naming them.</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0.5em
0px;color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Thoughts?</p>
<div>Seth Deegan (lectrician1)</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
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</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Thanks,
<div>Seth</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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