<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
My main issue with this is not technical details about how they
work, but about how they are used. They look like an elevator, act
like one and serve exactly the same purpose. You press a button,
they come, the doors open, you press a button inside to go up or
down, etc.<br>
They are used on relatively short distances, often alongside
escalators.<br>
Funiculars to me look more like trains, and have a different
connotation: something you have to buy a ticket for, that go longer
distances, etc. In the end it's a common issue with categories being
inherently fuzzy and we have to draw a distinction somewhere.<br>
<br>
I would have no problem if the wiki instructed to model inclined
elevators as funiculars even if it might not be technically correct.<br>
But it isn't:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Delevator#How_to_Map_as_a_Way">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Delevator#How_to_Map_as_a_Way</a>
(and this page is also referenced from the funicular page) so there
is an ambiguity.<br>
How do I tag the inclined elevator close to where I live? With
highway=elevator, as stated on the wiki and which seems more
technically correct? But then the maps don't display it and it's
typically not included in navigation software. Or do I tag it as a
funicular because at least it will be displayed on maps, even though
it's technically wrong and goes against the wiki?<br>
<br>
This also creates a chicken an egg problem. Mappers don't use
highway=elevator because it's not supported, and then developers may
refuse to consider it because it's not commonly used...<br>
<br>
<br>
Guillaume<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2020-12-04 22:58, Joseph Eisenberg
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPjUbKXRZUDu4jC0_7NVvEq-_6D3mU4sXSAg4+OnLAhsPQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">I've looked into these.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe
UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color
Emoji","Segoe UI
Emoji";font-size:14px;margin-top:0px">Most inclined
elevators seem to also operate with cables, with the
difference being that in a funicular there are 2 cars
attached to 1 cable, so one ascends while the other
descends, but in an inclined elevator each car (or there
might only be 1 car) is attached to a counterweight or a
winch.</p>
<p
style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe
UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color
Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji";font-size:14px">Unfortunately
it looks like most uses of the tag highway=elevator on a
way are actually areas (closed ways):<br
style="box-sizing:border-box">
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10S8"
style="box-sizing:border-box;text-decoration:none"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10S8</a> -
3080 highway=elevator ways are closed. A review of a few
of these suggests they are mostly 4 node rectangular ways
which represent the area of a verticle elevator. About
half are tagged <code
style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,"Liberation
Mono",Menlo,monospace;font-size:11.899999618530273px;padding:0.2em
0.4em;margin:0px;border-top-left-radius:6px;border-top-right-radius:6px;border-bottom-right-radius:6px;border-bottom-left-radius:6px">indoor=room</code> - <a
rel="nofollow" href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10Se"
style="box-sizing:border-box;text-decoration:none"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10Se</a><br
style="box-sizing:border-box">
vs<br style="box-sizing:border-box">
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10S9"
style="box-sizing:border-box;text-decoration:none"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10S9</a> -
190 ways which are not closed. These look to be inclined
elevators, though in some cases it’s not possible to tell
if they might actually be a funicular instead.</p>
<p
style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe
UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color
Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji";font-size:14px">While
railway=funicular is 10 times as common, this might or
might not represent the actual relative frequency of these
features in the real world, I don’t know.</p>
<p
style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe
UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color
Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji";font-size:14px">The
wiki page text says that a railway=funicular is "A
funicular, also known as an inclined plane or cliff
railway, is a cable railway in which a cable attached to a
pair of tram-like vehicles on rails moves them up and down
a steep slope, the ascending and descending vehicles
counterbalancing each other.”</p>
<p
style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe
UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color
Emoji","Segoe UI
Emoji";font-size:14px;margin-bottom:0px">However, the
description in the infobox (which is much more commonly
seen in places like taginfo and iD) is only “Cable driven
inclined railway” - and this could include many types of
"inclined elevators” which mostly run on rails too. So
mappers might be using railway=funicular for inclined
elevators already.</p>
<p
style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe
UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color
Emoji","Segoe UI
Emoji";font-size:14px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
</p>
<p
style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe
UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color
Emoji","Segoe UI
Emoji";font-size:14px;margin-bottom:0px">-- Joseph
Eisenberg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 2:55 PM
Graeme Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:graemefitz1@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">graemefitz1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 at
08:33, Guillaume Chauvat <<a
href="mailto:guillaume@chauvat.eu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">guillaume@chauvat.eu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Yes, but this is a node, not a way. Inclined
elevators require a way and those are not displayed
properly.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry, didn't get what you were getting at!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Graeme</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>