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<p>Sorry, forgot to add that an alternative to fuzzy areas would be to do like hamlet/village/town/city etc and have a bunch of these point names for various natural features that we could place out instead of fuzzy areas. Do you think that is better?</p>
<p>That combined with an external database for huge areas ("the Alps") would fulfill most needs. Shaping text for the small fuzzy areas is not really much of a thing so point naming would be satisfactory, but would be quite many tags that needs introducing, while the fuzzy area is more a continuation of areas that already exist and are to some extent already in use. I also think a fuzzy area does provide some valuable information and requires the mapper to make a healthy think over what the name actually refers to and covers, and avoids the issue of "which tag size to use".</p>
<p>That said, I would pick hierarchical point naming over nothing any day.</p>
<p>/Anders</p>
<p id="reply-intro">On 2020-12-21 19:30, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:</p>
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<div>Dec 21, 2020, 16:42 by zelonewolf@gmail.com:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 8:01 AM Frederik Ramm <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" rel="noreferrer">frederik@remote.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div>Our current data model is not suitable for mapping fuzzy areas. We can</div>
<div>only do "precise". Also, as you correctly pointed out, or basic tenet of</div>
<div>verifiability doesn't work well with fuzzy data.</div>
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<div>The current data model works just fine for fuzzy areas: it requires a polygon combined with tagging that indicates that the area is "fuzzy". Since the current data model allows both polygons and tags, fuzzy areas could be mapped just fine from a technical standpoint.</div>
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<div>Bigger problem is that with things like mountain ranges there are multiple differing opinions</div>
<div>about borders.</div>
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<div>For example in case of <a href="https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskid_Wyspowy" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskid_Wyspowy</a> multiple authors</div>
<div>give precise, unfuzzy borders (specific rivers or roads).</div>
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<div>But different authors prefer different borders.</div>
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<div>See for example <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_oceans" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_oceans</a></div>
<div>and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundaries_between_the_continents_of_Earth" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundaries_between_the_continents_of_Earth</a></div>
<div>for other kind of differences. Modelling this is not fitting well how OSM works.</div>
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<div>So the one questions is, do we want fuzzy areas, the other is, if we</div>
<div>want them, how can they be established - because in our current database</div>
<div>they cannot.</div>
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<div>I think fuzzy areas make a lot of sense for cartography, but I strongly</div>
<div>object to people adding hand-wavy polygons to OSM for fuzzy areas.</div>
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<div>"Whether we want fuzzy areas" and "how they can be established" is certainly an open question that requires additional intellectual thought and consensus-building to achieve. However, the statement that they "cannot" be established in our database is simply an opinion, not a technical barrier.</div>
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<div>I would not say cannot, but it is extremely poor fit to OSM data model and how</div>
<div>OSM operates.</div>
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<div>The statement that fuzzy polygons is "damaging" is an argument not based in fact. It is not damaging to me to have building outlines, which I do not care about. I can simply ignore them. Likewise, fuzzy areas cause no damage to people that do not care about fuzzy areas, provided that there is tagging that distinguishes them from non-fuzzy areas.</div>
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<div>It is not so easy. Someone mapped several fuzzy areas in my regions and all of</div>
<div>them are extremely irritating while mapping.</div>
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<div>Building outlines are not stretching for hundreds of kilometers and do</div>
<div>not appear in places where there is nothing at all and building outlines</div>
<div>are verifiable unlike mess like <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1757627" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1757627</a></div>
<div>and other from <a href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11pc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11pc</a></div>
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<div>Some day I will need to check whatever it is also one big copyright violation</div>
<div>(for now I just left questions at ancient changesets that added this mess).</div>
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