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<p>Cluttering could be a problem, but is an easy thing to solve with filters. As I edit i national parks now I have this huge national park polygon covering all work, which renders as a flat although half-transparent color in JOSM. It's easy to remove with a filter though, but actually I'm not disturbed by it enough to care to do it. If we actually define this as a feature we could have a filter setup for these in our tools.</p>
<p>The question becomes more complex as there are several types of these areas. Regions in cities like this I haven't thought about before, I didn't know that it existed. It has quite different impact than a plateau in the mountains.</p>
<p>I think it would be unfortunate if a few bad examples of fuzzy area use or (simple) limitations in our tools block all use or further development of them, as they are important for certain type of maps in certain areas. I guess cities can do well without region mapping or just use points which there is a quite rich definition for already (neighboorhood etc), but making an outdoor/rural map without naming nature and without proper support for zooming out (ie having some approximate size of the named features), greatly cripples the capabilities of maps rendered for those areas.</p>
<p>Do you think there is a valid use for fuzzy areas in outdoor/rural areas, or would you rather see them not being used there either?</p>
<p>/Anders</p>
<p id="reply-intro">On 2020-12-21 19:30, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:</p>
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<div>Dec 21, 2020, 16:42 by zelonewolf@gmail.com:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 8:01 AM Frederik Ramm <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" rel="noreferrer">frederik@remote.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div>Our current data model is not suitable for mapping fuzzy areas. We can</div>
<div>only do "precise". Also, as you correctly pointed out, or basic tenet of</div>
<div>verifiability doesn't work well with fuzzy data.</div>
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<div>The current data model works just fine for fuzzy areas: it requires a polygon combined with tagging that indicates that the area is "fuzzy". Since the current data model allows both polygons and tags, fuzzy areas could be mapped just fine from a technical standpoint.</div>
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<div>Bigger problem is that with things like mountain ranges there are multiple differing opinions</div>
<div>about borders.</div>
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<div>For example in case of <a href="https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskid_Wyspowy" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskid_Wyspowy</a> multiple authors</div>
<div>give precise, unfuzzy borders (specific rivers or roads).</div>
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<div>But different authors prefer different borders.</div>
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<div>See for example <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_oceans" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_oceans</a></div>
<div>and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundaries_between_the_continents_of_Earth" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundaries_between_the_continents_of_Earth</a></div>
<div>for other kind of differences. Modelling this is not fitting well how OSM works.</div>
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<div>So the one questions is, do we want fuzzy areas, the other is, if we</div>
<div>want them, how can they be established - because in our current database</div>
<div>they cannot.</div>
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<div>I think fuzzy areas make a lot of sense for cartography, but I strongly</div>
<div>object to people adding hand-wavy polygons to OSM for fuzzy areas.</div>
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<div>"Whether we want fuzzy areas" and "how they can be established" is certainly an open question that requires additional intellectual thought and consensus-building to achieve. However, the statement that they "cannot" be established in our database is simply an opinion, not a technical barrier.</div>
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<div>I would not say cannot, but it is extremely poor fit to OSM data model and how</div>
<div>OSM operates.</div>
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<div>The statement that fuzzy polygons is "damaging" is an argument not based in fact. It is not damaging to me to have building outlines, which I do not care about. I can simply ignore them. Likewise, fuzzy areas cause no damage to people that do not care about fuzzy areas, provided that there is tagging that distinguishes them from non-fuzzy areas.</div>
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<div>It is not so easy. Someone mapped several fuzzy areas in my regions and all of</div>
<div>them are extremely irritating while mapping.</div>
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<div>Building outlines are not stretching for hundreds of kilometers and do</div>
<div>not appear in places where there is nothing at all and building outlines</div>
<div>are verifiable unlike mess like <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1757627" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1757627</a></div>
<div>and other from <a href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11pc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11pc</a></div>
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<div>Some day I will need to check whatever it is also one big copyright violation</div>
<div>(for now I just left questions at ancient changesets that added this mess).</div>
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