<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" /></head><body><div data-html-editor-font-wrapper="true" style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><p>I think type as I use it in the proposal fits quite well. After all it groups up devices with similar properties. This also fits with the use of method and type in the Wikipedia article about power storage. Method is the physical principals used (electrochemical,thermal,....) while types are the specific devices invented based on these principals (like batteries, that are based on electrochemics), which have sub-types (like lithium-ion for batteries).</p><p>-Christian<br><br>29. Dezember 2020 23:32, "Warin" <<a target="_blank" tabindex="-1" href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com?to=%22Warin%22%20<61sundowner@gmail.com>">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>> schrieb:</p><blockquote><div><div><div>On 30/12/20 2:13 am, Christian Pietzsch wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:16508993c4faa736723ae82c35902682@piespace.de"><div style="font-family: arial, sans-serif;font-size: 13px"><p>looking at my original proposal I had some ideas of simplyfing it and reducing tagging.<br>things would be put under the subtag <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="external nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_storage#Tagging">storage:type</a></p></div></blockquote><p>Again .. not 'type' ... type mean what exactly? storage method? storage device?</p> <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:16508993c4faa736723ae82c35902682@piespace.de"><div style="font-family: arial, sans-serif;font-size: 13px"><p>So without the the pre-tag of plant:generator so it can be used on either of these. categorization based on physical basis gets dropped (so no more electrochemical/thermal/...) because the level below is most likely known. sub_types of for example batteries then could be tagged with battery=*</p><p>Let me know if this makes things easier. Would also mean there wasn't a need for power=storage as long as you consider storage as a plant/generator.</p><p>Check out the examples below to get an idea of what it would look like.<br><br>29. Dezember 2020 15:49, "Christian Pietzsch" <<a target="_blank" rel="external nofollow noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" tabindex="-1" href="mailto:christian.pietzsch@piespace.de">christian.pietzsch@piespace.de</a>> schrieb:</p><blockquote>* we could have a power=energy_storage tag that builds the foundation for all storage devices and<br>facilities<blockquote>How will such device should be tagged, then?<br><br><a target="_blank" rel="external nofollow noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" tabindex="-1" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2402929868">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2402929868</a></blockquote><br><br>I didn't include pumped hydro in this proposal on purpose. It's already been well established and I<br>know how resistant people within the community are to change established tags (see contact: wars).<br>I would have left this our for a secondary proposal.<br>But if you ask me it would be for the idea (not the original one I wrote down in the proposal)<br>would be power=storage + storage=facility + storage:source(?)=hydro + storage:type(?)=pumped_hydro<br>+storage:capacity= xxx MWH.<br>Individual generators would stay the same as they are.<br><br>* we could have a energy_storage=facility (for whole facilities dedicated solely to storing energy<br>like Honrsdale Power Reserve) or energy_storage=module for individual storage units (for example<br>the containers with the batteries at Hornsdale or within a power=plant that also has storage)<blockquote>How will facilities with PV, batteries and hydrogen electrolyser be addressed between power=plant<br>and power=energy_storage?<br><br>Here is a 1 GW project in France with them three<br><br><a target="_blank" rel="external nofollow noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" tabindex="-1" href="https://www.greenunivers.com/2020/12/engie-et-neoen-sur-un-mega-projet-solaire-hydrogene-en-france-e">https://www.greenunivers.com/2020/12/engie-et-neoen-sur-un-mega-projet-solaire-hydrogene-en-france-e</a><br>clusif-248632/</blockquote><br><br>as mentioned above power=storage would only be used for facilities/modules solely dedicated to<br>storing and releasing energy. SO for a combined plant it would still be power=plant. But here we<br>come back to the problem I mentioned before<br><br>The one issue I have is that you can easily tag the storage capacity for a combined generation and<br>storage plant but you can't tag the method of storage. For Example if I have Kraftwerk Fenne<br>(<a target="_blank" rel="external nofollow noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" tabindex="-1" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/24599434">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/24599434</a>) which would be power=plant with individual<br>power=storage modules for the battery storage (<a target="_blank" rel="external nofollow noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" tabindex="-1" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/24599434">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/24599434</a>.<blockquote>That's why power=energy_storage is not the best option</blockquote><br><br>with the outline I gave here on talk (because there have been so many people wanting a dedicated<br>power=storage), you could only add storage:capacity:hydrogen=* and storage:capacity:electricity=*<br>to the PV power=plant and then tag the individual batteries and electrolyser seperately.<br>With the ordignal proposal you could add plant:storage:type=electrolyser;lithium-ion.<br><br>* than have the different methods of storage. Not exactly sure how we would name these tags<br>* Wikipedia has methods as the highest level (electrochemical/thermal/....) We might not<br>necessarily need these<br>* next level down comes type (which would be magnetic/capacitor for electrical or<br>flywheel/gravitational/compressed air for mechanical)<br>* and one level down would be sub types (like lithium-ion/lead/liquid-salt/.... for batteries)<blockquote>Experience of power=generator with 3 levels of classification, including a :type tag is not that<br>good despite it comes from good and ambitious intentions.<br><br>As those n-levels classifications are often logical trees, here generator:type could imply most<br>generator:source and generator:methods.<br><br>More recently in pumps proposal, a multi-level classification (out of Wikipedia) was synthesised<br>with a single OSM key<br><br><a target="_blank" rel="external nofollow noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" tabindex="-1" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal#Pump_mechanisms">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal#Pump_mechanisms</a><br><br>You won't find velocity, positive_displacement, gravity... as OSM values here but it's easy to<br>retrieve them.<br>I suggest to do the same with storage, a single key for the whole classification.</blockquote><br><br>I agree that we don't necessarily need them. But I think having a higher level available when<br>details are unknown, could be helpful. For example I might know that the facility uses batteries<br>but I can't find out whether these are lithium-ion or lead or so.<br>So I think as for generator and plant the tree should probably be seen from the other side. If you<br>don't know the lowest level, you go one higher.<br><br>For a data consumer to know how the power plant stores it's energy, they would have to find the<br>tagged storage modules within the facility. Which also is a problem for mappers that might not know<br>where the energy storage is located but know the power plant uses this or this kind of storage.<blockquote>Need to know a particular kind of feature is located in a facility doesn't force anyone to use the<br>primary key to do so.<br>No need for power=* to state for such capability here.<br><br>i.e : "I know this public swimming pool got toilets but I don't know where" isn't a valid reason to<br>retag leisure=swimming_pool to amenity=toilets.<br>Same applies here.</blockquote><br><br>I think there has been a misunderstanding here. I never intended to retag a power=plant to a<br>power=storage because it has one battery. What I meant was that from the perspective of a data<br>consumer it would be easiest if you have all the tags for the facilities power generation as well<br>as its energy storage together. Which would also make sense logically. power producing and storing<br>part together form the power=plant<br> </blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><br><br><signature></signature></div></body></html>