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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/12/20 5:28 am, François Lacombe
wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:CAG0ygLeDPU5NPb9ioLYuq1iGGQSp6aTsQzyqmYhTPD5XfPiiRQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mer. 30 déc. 2020
à 17:00, Christian Pietzsch <<a
href="mailto:christian.pietzsch@piespace.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">christian.pietzsch@piespace.de</a>>
a écrit :<br>
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But do they really use non-rechargable batteries? I guess
for these edge-cases power=generator +
generator:type=battery would be a solution. But all isolated
cases I have stumbled across that are big enough to include
into OSM (not thinking of the clock on my neighbors wall xD)
have some kind of way of recharging them. Thinking of remote
telecom towers here that often use diesel generator or some
installations that use car batteries (sometimes charged by
solar).<br>
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<div>Underground or arctic off-grid facilities may encounter
situations were there is no sun nor wind to be charged and
you're forced to come periodically to change the battery.</div>
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<p><br>
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<p>The outback Australian ones are rechargeable. <br>
</p>
<p>Communities have back up diesel generators. Microwave repeaters
too use rechargeable... these do fail - usually the recharging
system fails not the battery (solar is installed .. don't know if
they back that up with diesel). <br>
</p>
<p>I would think underground facilities would not want batteries in
them, they would have most of their batteries above ground for
safety? <br>
</p>
<p>The arctic I don't know. Antarctic winds are fairly strong! <br>
</p>
<p>From <br>
</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.powerengineeringint.com/renewables/storage-in-the-arctic/">https://www.powerengineeringint.com/renewables/storage-in-the-arctic/</a>
<br>
</p>
<p>looks like they use rechargeable batteries ... and wind with
diesel.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>--------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>Cost and environmental issues would, I think, place non
rechargeable batteries out of any large commercial energy storage
system. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
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<div>Defining two different ways to describe batteries based
on their capabilities (primary or secondary) is once again a
poor idea: mappers will be confused on which power=* they
should choose.<br>
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I have to disagree here. For me a fuel cell has no storage
capacity at all. It takes fuel and consumes it. Just like an
engine takes fuel and consumes it. The fuel is stored in
tanks (which would still be tagged as normal storage tanks
at the facility). But for me the whole facility that turns
electricity to fuel and back to electricity has a storage
capacity.<br>
So only the power=plant would get a storage:capacity. And
would get a storage:type=power-to-gas <br>
I will probably have to take the power-to-x methods out and
place them a bit separately to better distinguish them from
other storage methods.<br>
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<div>Agree on that point, split the table between plant and
device storage level is a good point.</div>
<div>It's not mandatory to define several key for that.
Compatibility with power=plant and generator/batteries can
be handled on values.<br>
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It's an easy change. I will leave it open for now and see
what others think about the idea. I might make a note in the
proposal as well<br>
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<div>It's not an easy change as generator:type is now pretty
well used.</div>
<div>However new keys should be designed with experience in
mind and :type should be avoided.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Le mer. 30 déc. 2020 à 17:49, Paul Allen <<a
href="mailto:pla16021@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">pla16021@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit : <br>
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<div>Both generators and batteries are power
sources, but not all power sources</div>
<div>are generators, just as not all power sources
are batteries.</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div><br>
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Are you only considering generators as kinetic energy
converters only?</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">Wikipedia EN does, without proper
source</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_generator"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_generator</a></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">Wikipedia FR doesn't, without proper
source</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><a
href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9n%C3%A9rateur_%C3%A9lectrique#G%C3%A9n%C3%A9rateur_non_tournant"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9n%C3%A9rateur_%C3%A9lectrique#G%C3%A9n%C3%A9rateur_non_tournant</a></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">Anyway, OSM already have many solar PV
panels as power=generator.</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">Will we have to retag them?<br>
</div>
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<div>A source of electrical energy. I agree with
that. What it doesn't say is that</div>
<div>it's a generator.</div>
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<div>As current OSM current definition for a generator is a
device converting a non-electric power to electricity (or
even any other form) I don't get the difference between
them, honestly.</div>
<div> <br>
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<div>But a battery is not considered an energy
transducer.</div>
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<div>Transducers are a very wide family of devices and to me
batteries are actual transducers.</div>
<div>Not all transducers are generators as they includes
sensors as well.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
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<div>Give a list of storage-capable devices and see
what the list comes up with</div>
<div>for names. :)<br>
</div>
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<div>Many items of proposed table are not batteries</div>
<div><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_storage#Tagging"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_storage#Tagging</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is that relevant to define a different power=* value
for each?<br>
</div>
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<div>Also, I understand the desire to tag everything
related to power generation</div>
<div>under power, but electrical storage devices store
energy, not power.</div>
<div>Electrical Engineers and physicists would be
upset at the idea of</div>
<div>storing power.<br>
</div>
</div>
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<div><br>
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<div>OSM power=* key covers many activities related to
electricity production, transmission or usage.</div>
<div>We didn't come to a point to make a difference between
power and energy here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>François<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
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