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<p>In NL cycle traffic is kept segregated from foot traffic, unless there is a cycle track but no footway; in that case you can walk on the cycle track (in the absence of signs to the contrary). So footway means footway, and cycleway means cycleway. There are quite a few grey areas though, principally involving things like "hoverboards" that aren't strictly legal anyway.</p>
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<p>On 2021-01-02 22:00, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:</p>
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<div dir="ltr">I agree that segregated=no should be assumed to be the default value in many cases.
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<div>In fact, in the United States segregation is so rare that I would assume segregated=no in any case where segregated=yes is not added.</div>
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<div>Also in Indonesia I can't recall seeing any segregated paths, so I would always assume segregated=no there. </div>
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<div>Perhaps in the Netherlands or Denmark segregation between foot and bike traffic is common enough that it is necessary to add segregated=no to paved highway=path features? </div>
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<div>-- Joseph Eisenberg</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 12:45 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div>Jan 2, 2021, 21:25 by <a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com">voschix@gmail.com</a>:</div>
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<div>I see no problem with the "segregated" key.</div>
<div>It is only applicable to paths that carry explicit signs for bicycle=designated and foot=designted.</div>
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<div>I would not go so far, explicit segregated=no on highway=footway bicycle=yes</div>
<div>is not incorrect</div>
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<div>It should be surface-independent, because there are (infrequent) cases of unpaved segregated foot-cyclepaths (I have seen them in parks). </div>
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<div>How the segregation looks like in such cases? Lane "painted" with other color of gravel? </div>
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<div>I have also seen cases of segregated foot-cycle paths where the pedestrians have pavement, and the cyclists do not, or vice versa.</div>
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<div>But in such cases at least one of foot and biycle tags was tagged as designated, right?</div>
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<div>Your first example (<span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Réserve naturelle nationale de la baie de Somme</span></span><span style="font-size: 13px;">)</span> looks like a highway=track; motor_vehicle=no/private. Are you sure that it is a designated foot-cycle-path.</div>
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<div>I have seen path exactly like that (not this one, it was an example photo as taking</div>
<div>one was not feasible), correctly tagged as highway=footway + bicycle=yes</div>
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<div>JOSM for example in such case demands explicit segregated tag what seems</div>
<div>pointless to me.</div>
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<div>So this would avoid the segregated yes/no issue.</div>
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<div>So you think that for say highway=footway + bicycle=yes segregated tag should not</div>
<div>be mandatory?</div>
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<div>For unmarked footpath-like paved ways like the one in your Krakow park photo I presume that cycling is not explicitly allowed, but tolerated.</div>
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<div>It is explicitly allowed (otherwise bicycle=yes would not be correct) by park rules </div>
<div>that were established by city government.</div>
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<div> Is there any signposting in your Krakow example?</div>
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<div>In some parks rules, including "no vehicles, except bicycles" are signposted.</div>
<div>In some parks signs are not placed or were damaged since placing them many years ago.</div>
<div>Local laws applicable can be found in the repository maintained by local government.</div>
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<div>In absence of explicit signs, I normally tag them as highway=footway; bicycle=permissive, not bicycle=yes.</div>
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<div>bicycle=permissive is incorrect tag in cases where cycling is illegal but tolerated and it</div>
<div>is anyway not applicable in this case as cycling is explicitly legal.</div>
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<div>In this case, JOSM has recently started insisting on having the explicit segregated tag.</div>
<div>Insisting on "segregated" tagging when there are no blue disk signs or equivalents is debatable.indeed</div>
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<div>That is my problem, and I want to change that. This validator complaints triggered this thread.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 at 18:39, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:segregated" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:segregated</a> since 2011 claims that</div>
<div>"This key has no default value and should be tagged on all shared ways!"</div>
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<div>It seems to me that I misunderstand something or that recommendation should</div>
<div>be modified</div>
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<div>case 1, unpaved paths:</div>
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<div>in many cases both cyclists and pedestrians are allowed on unpaved paths</div>
<div>tagging may be for example</div>
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<div>highway=path</div>
<div>bicycle=designated</div>
<div>foot=designated</div>
<div>vehicle=no</div>
<div>surface=dirt</div>
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<div>for something that looks like </div>
<div><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2017-07_R%C3%A9serve_naturelle_nationale_de_la_baie_de_Somme_10.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2017-07_R%C3%A9serve_naturelle_nationale_de_la_baie_de_Somme_10.jpg</a></div>
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<div>It seems to me that segregated=yes is extremely rare for unpaved paths,</div>
<div>and explicit segregated=no is not wrong here, but I would not claim</div>
<div>that it should be tagged.</div>
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<div>I would say that for unpaved surfaces it is safe to assume segregated=no,</div>
<div>OK to tag it, but I would not strongly encourage it.</div>
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<div>In other words, surface=unpaved, surface=dirt, surface=sand and other</div>
<div>similar values indicate segregated=no</div>
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<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div>
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<div>case 2, nondesignated + designated use:</div>
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<div>there is plenty of paths that are primarily for pedestrians, but with</div>
<div>allowed use for cyclists</div>
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<div>typical tagging may be along lines of</div>
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<div>highway=footway</div>
<div>bicycle=yes</div>
<div>surface=asphalt</div>
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<div>such path may look like </div>
<div><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krakow_3Maja_Park_Jordana_widok_05_A-579.JPG" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krakow_3Maja_Park_Jordana_widok_05_A-579.JPG</a></div>
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<div>In this case segregated=no is clear, as in case of designated bicycle space</div>
<div>on path it would be bicycle=designated, not bicycle=yes</div>
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<div>Similarly for</div>
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<div>highway=path</div>
<div>foot=designated</div>
<div>bicycle=yes</div>
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<div>highway=path</div>
<div>foot=yes</div>
<div>bicycle=designated</div>
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<div>highway=cycleway</div>
<div>foot=yes</div>
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<div>Or is it actually strongly preferable to have explicit segregated also in this cases and</div>
<div>QA/Validators/editors etc should demand an explicit segregated=no (or =yes) tag</div>
<div>in such cases?</div>
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