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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/01/2021 14:31, Mateusz Konieczny
via Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MQ2HvyM--3-2@tutanota.com">
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<div>Jan 1, 2021, 11:25 by <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lrichert@posteo.de">lrichert@posteo.de</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<p>Ah I replied on the wiki, but I'll do so here to with some
more examples.<br>
</p>
<div class="">On 01/01/2021 08:34, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I still have 3 major concerns with this proposal.<br>
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<div> <br>
</div>
<div> 1) I share the concerns of Mateusz Konieczny that a
tag like " electricity:grid:origin=hydro" is not
verifiable, it's just advertising. I don't think this is
something we should try to map in OpenStreetMap, because
we try to avoid adding tags which are advertising claims
which cannot be confirmed to be true or false. <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The wiki explicitly mentions financial means and guarantees
of origin are financial products and physics obviously
dictates that electrons are not distinguishable particles.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<div>I have no trouble with tagging presence of advertised claims
of guarantees of origin.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I want to make clear that we are tagging advertised
claims, not guarantees of origin<br>
</div>
<div>that require financial/legal analysis rather than on the
ground survey.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div> However, in OSM we also map organic farm shops and opening
hours advertising among a host of other features that are
indicated by signage. These are also not verifiable by a
mapper<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Opening hours are fully verifiable by mapper. Unsigned ones
can be obtained by asking <br>
</div>
<div>employees, and even in absurd cases of intentionally
misleading info you can<br>
</div>
<div>verify when something is open by checking it sufficiently
often.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Organic-ness however is not verifiable for the mapper - it is
just as much an advertising as the origin of electricity in a
grid. I've also known quite a few shops where the stated opening
hours differed considerably from those actually kept and can vary
considerably. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MQ2HvyM--3-2@tutanota.com">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In cases of guarantees of origin mapper can verify advertised
claims, but checking<br>
</div>
<div>actually signed contract requires legal analysis and in my
opinion is utterly unsuitable<br>
</div>
<div>for OpenStreetMap.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Nowehere is the tag defined as mapping signed contracts. The
definition explicitly states that if there is a<b> sign </b>advertising
the origin of the electricity coming from the grid, then this is
the tag to use. Thus, the tag maps what is indicated on a sign at
the feature - this does not imply any knowledge of the state of
actual contracts. </p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MQ2HvyM--3-2@tutanota.com">
<div>I a also dubious about usefulness of mapping this in OSM and
I am not going to do that,<br>
</div>
<div>but if someone wants to map kind of advertisements, I have no
trouble with that.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div>If a sign clearly indicates 'renewable energy' then it
should be possible for it to be tagged.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>+1 - but electricity:grid:origin is in my opinion extremely
poor tag for that, I would be fine<br>
</div>
<div>with electricity:advertised_origin<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The only disagreement here seems to be the words used in the tag
- not the actual definition of it. To be consistent with the
tagging scheme, the tag would have to be
electricity:grid:advertised_origin. This is quite a hefty tag at
34 characters. The definition is clear, I don't see why every
nuance of a tag defintion must be explicitly indicated in the tag
especially as many editors don't even show the direct tag name. </p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MQ2HvyM--3-2@tutanota.com">
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div> If you personally don't believe this makes any difference,
then simply don't use these tags to filter, but please do
allow others to make that choice. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>+1<br>
</div>
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