<div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>Let's also not forget about the african context where this tag is currently most used. The electricity=* tag is very helpful in the humanitarian sector to know if facilities (health posts, hospitals, accomodation sites...) and individual houses are connected to an electricity grid, or if it is using its own electricity source (solar panels on the roof, fuel-powered generator, wind turbine...), or if it has no electricity at all. Maybe this doesn't make much sense in developed countries where all facilities and individual houses are supposed to have electricity, so the tag might have a slightly different purpose as said above. </div><div><br></div><div>I think the currently proposed tagging should be fine for a global context. </div><div><br></div><div>Also, a switch to renewable energy might not be a thing of this century for my country :-)</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:27 PM Lukas Richert <<a href="mailto:lrichert@posteo.de">lrichert@posteo.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>That is <b>precisely</b> the purpose of the tagging. <br>
    </p>
    <p>The conversation got a bit off-track questioning the longevity of
      the tag, but I think it will still be relevant for 20-30 years. I
      mean we have tagging for covid19 opening hours - they'll hopefully
      have a shorter lifespan!<br>
    </p>
    <div>On 02/01/2021 20:00, Brian M.
      Sperlongano wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">I was under the impression that the purpose of
        tagging the electricity source was for electricity consumers
        that wished to discern between green energy and fossil
        fuel-supplied energy (or some other characteristic which might
        influence their decision) when "shopping", if you will, for a
        point-of-use electricity provider.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>However, if an entire region or country has their
          electricity supplied by a common source, I would not be in
          favor of mapping every single electric outlet with this fact.</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 1:37 PM
          Lukas Richert <<a href="mailto:lrichert@posteo.de" target="_blank">lrichert@posteo.de</a>> wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            <p>Let's not be needlessly pedantic - sure 95% probably also
              works. The point is, compared to the age of the map, this
              will be a relevant feature for a significant amount of
              time, at least in some countries. If the feaure is not
              advertised anymore, the tag dies out on its own.<br>
            </p>
            <div>On 02/01/2021 15:55, Paul Allen wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr"><br>
                <br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 2 Jan 2021
                    at 14:32, Lukas Richert <<a href="mailto:lrichert@posteo.de" target="_blank">lrichert@posteo.de</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div>
                      <p>When a country completely switches to renewable
                        energies in their grid, I would be overjoyed to
                        completely delete the electricity:grid:origin
                        tags in that region.</p>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div>So you think it necessary to wait for 100%
                    renewable on the grid?</div>
                  <div>99.99999% is not good enough?  How about 99%? 
                    98%?  Where</div>
                  <div>do you draw the line on that?
                    <div>In reality, the point where the tag can be
                      removed is when nobody</div>
                    <div>advertises the source any more.  And that will
                      come long before</div>
                    <div>100% (or 98%) switchover on the grid.  At some
                      point there is</div>
                    <div>no financial return to be had from advertising
                      renewable sources,</div>
                    <div>when non-renewable sources are a rare
                      exception.  That point</div>
                    <div>will actually be even earlier than that, when
                      renewables are</div>
                    <div>common enough that the gains from advertising
                      renewable</div>
                    <div>sources fall short of the costs of the
                      advertising.<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                      <div>
                        <p> Most countries are aiming for this to occur
                          by 2050 with many still falling</p>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div>China recently changed the game.  It realized
                      it was now cheaper to use</div>
                    <div>renewables than non-renewables, so committed to
                      a shorter timescale.</div>
                    <div>Economies of scale from China alone mean that
                      renewable costs,</div>
                    <div>already cheaper than non-renewable, will fall
                      even more.  There's</div>
                    <div>a reason Exxon-Mobil is no longer in the Dow
                      Jones 30-stock</div>
                    <div>benchmark: it's not going to be a big profit
                      maker in the future</div>
                    <div>so people are no longer paying a lot for the
                      stock.<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div> Advanced countries with competent leadership
                      are starting to follow</div>
                    <div> China's lead as they realize there's a large
                      manufacturing industry</div>
                    <div>developing that will be based in China unless
                      they set up their own</div>
                    <div> industries.  They either compete with China
                      now or buy the hardware<br>
                    </div>
                    <div>from China for a long time to come.  <br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>We have reached a tipping-point in the climate
                      change crisis: the one</div>
                    <div>where it's cheaper RIGHT NOW to do something
                      than not do</div>
                    <div>something.  Future returns are not great
                      drivers: "Do something</div>
                    <div>now or you'll regret it in 30 years because of
                      the expense of</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div>dealing with severe climate change" doesn't
                    influence markets</div>
                  <div> much.  "Do it now and you'll make money now" is
                    a great driver.<br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>I don't see this tag having a long life.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>-- <br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Paul</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <fieldset></fieldset>
              <pre>_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          Tagging mailing list<br>
          <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
          <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote></div>