<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head> <title></title> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, user-scalable=no"> </head> <body><div id="CanaryBody"> <div> As yet another American who in younger years did a little mountain climbing I want to reinforce Kevin’s reply.</div><div><br></div><div>Couloir is definitely used in climbing to describe a specific feature. And other words like gully do not accurately convey the same information.</div> <div><br></div> </div> <div id="CanarySig"> <div> <div style="font-family:Helvetica;"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;">--<br>Sent from my phone, please forgive my brevity.</div></div> <div><br></div> </div> </div> <div id="CanaryDropbox"> </div> <blockquote id="CanaryBlockquote"> <div> <div>On Thursday, Feb 04, 2021 at 6:32 AM, Kevin Broderick <<a href="mailto:ktb@kevinbroderick.com">ktb@kevinbroderick.com</a>> wrote:<br></div> <div><div dir="ltr">Speaking as an American who wishes he got to spend more time in couloirs and less in front of the computer, I agree with Phil and Pierrick.<div><br></div><div>I'd also note that having couloirs specifically mapped could be enormously helpful for route-finding in ski mountaineering (not to mention SAR efforts if someone is reported injured at the bottom of "Hanging Couloir" or such). I doubt it would be likely to happen anytime soon in the areas I'm thinking about—most of them barely have the road network mapped—but if we got there, I can see a significant benefit.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:59 AM Philip Barnes <<a href="mailto:phil@trigpoint.me.uk">phil@trigpoint.me.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:<br> > <br> > <br> > > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in<br> > > English<br> > <br> > The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this<br> > topological features and nothing else compared to the French word<br> > that can be applicable to different situation.<br> > It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people<br> > that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people<br> > that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.<br> <br> Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the<br> above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it<br> is about tagging in the mountains.<br> <br> English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.<br> For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers<br> exclusively to a ski run.<br> > <br> > > What about "gully" instead.<br> > <br> Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same<br> precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.<br> <br> Phil (trigpoint)<br> <br> <br> <br> > I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a<br> > section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually<br> > describe the differences.<br> > I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general<br> > definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine<br> > terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not<br> > general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one<br> > or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is<br> > clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.<br> > <br> > It is important to make the difference because topological features<br> > are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used<br> > by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger<br> > exposition.<br> > <br> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐<br> > On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt < <br> > <a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank">voschix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are<br> > > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when<br> > > they are full with snow.<br> > > <br> > > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic<br> > > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).<br> > > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar<br> > > to the French original:<br> > > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen<br> > > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem<br> > > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand. <br> > > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist<br> > > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)<br> > > <br> > > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not<br> > > showing a French or German couloir.<br> > > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for<br> > > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.<br> > > <br> > > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in<br> > > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.<br> > > <br> > > What about "gully" instead.<br> > > <br> > > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people<br> > > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)<br> > > <br> > > <br> > > Virus-free. <a href="http://www.avast.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a><br> > > <br> > > <br> > > <br> > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg < <br> > > <a href="mailto:joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com" target="_blank">joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is<br> > > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially<br> > > > natural=valley<br> > > > <br> > > > -- Joseph Eisenberg<br> > > > <br> > > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley < <br> > > > <a href="mailto:walker.t.bradley@gmail.com" target="_blank">walker.t.bradley@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not<br> > > > > just a tight valley. Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s<br> > > > > a confined space often used for ascents or descents.<br> > > > > <br> > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank">voschix@gmail.com</a>><br> > > > > > wrote:<br> > > > > > <br> > > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only<br> > > > > > the steepness? <br> > > > > > <br> > > > > > Volker<br> > > > > > <br> > > > > > <br> > > > > > Virus-free. <a href="http://www.avast.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a><br> > > > > > <br> > > > > > <br> > > > > > <br> > > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging < <br> > > > > > <a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br> > > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :<br> > > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2<br> > > > > > > <br> > > > > > > <br> > > > > > > <br> > > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a<br> > > > > > > mountainous terrain<br> > > > > > > _______________________________________________<br> > > > > > > Tagging mailing list<br> > > > > > > <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br> > > > > > > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br> > > > > > _______________________________________________<br> > > > > > Tagging mailing list<br> > > > > > <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br> > > > > > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br> > > > > _______________________________________________<br> > > > > Tagging mailing list<br> > > > > <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br> > > > > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br> > > > _______________________________________________<br> > > > Tagging mailing list<br> > > > <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br> > > > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br> > <br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Tagging mailing list<br> > <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br> > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br> <br> <br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Tagging mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br> </blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Kevin Broderick</div><div><a href="mailto:ktb@kevinbroderick.com" target="_blank">ktb@kevinbroderick.com</a></div></div></div> _______________________________________________<br>Tagging mailing list<br>Tagging@openstreetmap.org<br>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging<br></div> </div> </blockquote> </body></html>