<div>I've updated the first image for a more classical couloir, for better understanding. I, also, put more images from commons as example to better differentiate a valley / gully / couloir.<br></div><div>I also changed the main definition with the wikipedia definition.<br></div><div><br></div><div>(BTW, the first image and the original denifition are from the first proposal, so I didn't look much into it, sorry)<br></div><div><br></div><div>You need to be aware that in French, words made for a specific thing can also be applicable for other things too.<br></div><div>An avalanche channel in French (at least in "mountain vocabulary") describe path that an avalanche can take, it is associated with couloir in French because avalanche are subject to start in couloirs because of their steepness. With use the term "couloir d'avalanche" to say that this couloir frequently start avalanches, this is why there are a lot of protection in them around ski resort.<br></div><div>It's used with the word "couloir" because this word in french describe everything that is long and narrow, like a corridor, etc.. A maritime corridor in french is not called a "couloir maritime" it's called a "corridor" literally, because England had a strong influence in the maritime world in history, like France might also had a strong influence in mountaineering in history.<br></div><div><br></div><div>> it seems that these couloirs are steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.<br></div><div><br></div><div>A couloir is a couloir no matter the elevation, type of surface or season. You can see a lot of example of couloir in winter because usually, they are more practicable and fun skiing than hiking.<br></div><div>The surface of a couloir can be rocks, grass mixed with rocks or a glacier can also go down a couloir like "Couloir Couturier" for example.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Look <a rel="nofollow" title="https://snowbrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/foundation-couloir-gouter-plan-localisation-refuges-min.jpg" target="_blank" href="https://snowbrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/foundation-couloir-gouter-plan-localisation-refuges-min.jpg">the Grand Couloir in winter</a> and <a rel="nofollow" title="https://www.petzl.com/fondation/foundation-couloir-gouter-ete-2011.jpg" target="_blank" href="https://www.petzl.com/fondation/foundation-couloir-gouter-ete-2011.jpg">in summer</a>, it is still a couloir no matter the season, in the summer there is no avalanches but rocks that fall down constantly.<br></div><div>FYI this couloir is more than 500 meters in length and ~85 meters wide. That's quite bigger than a regular gully. It is also one of the deadliest because the route to climb the Mont-Blanc crosses it.<br></div><div><br></div><div>> With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in English<br></div><div><br></div><div>The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this topological features and nothing else compared to the French word that can be applicable to different situation.<br></div><div>It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.<br></div><div><br></div><div>> What about "gully" instead.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually describe the differences.<br></div><div>I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.<br></div><div><br></div><div>It is important to make the difference because topological features are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger exposition.<br></div><div><br></div><div>‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐<br></div><div> On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <voschix@gmail.com> wrote:<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when they are full with snow.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).<br></div><div>In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar to the French original:<br></div><div><div>"
Ein <b>Couloir</b> (<a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz%C3%B6sische_Sprache" title="Französische Sprache">französisch</a> für <i>Korridor</i>) ist eine von <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fels" title="Fels">Felsen</a> begrenzte und oft mit <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnee" title="Schnee">Schnee</a> oder <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eis" title="Eis">Eis</a> gefüllte Rinne an einem Berghang oder in einer Bergwand. <br></div><div>Couloirs sind
steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist dem Stein- oder
Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)<br></div></div><div><br></div><div>The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not showing a French or German couloir.<br></div><div>In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.<br></div><div><br></div><div>With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.<br></div><div><br></div><div>What about "gully" instead.<br></div><div><br></div><div>BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)<br></div></div><div><div><br></div><table data-darkreader-inline-border-top style="border-top: 1px solid rgb(211, 212, 222); --darkreader-inline-border-top:#3b4042;"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" class="proton-embedded" width="46" height="29"></a><br></td><td data-darkreader-inline-color style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: rgb(65, 66, 78); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; --darkreader-inline-color:#bbb5ac;">Virus-free. <a data-darkreader-inline-color href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(68, 83, 234); --darkreader-inline-color:#4e8deb;">www.avast.com</a><br></td></tr></tbody></table><div><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a><br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com">joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote data-darkreader-inline-border-left class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; --darkreader-inline-border-left:#3e4446;"><div dir="ltr"><div>The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially natural=valley<br></div><div><br></div><div>-- Joseph Eisenberg<br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <<a href="mailto:walker.t.bradley@gmail.com" target="_blank">walker.t.bradley@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote data-darkreader-inline-border-left class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; --darkreader-inline-border-left:#3e4446;"><div dir="auto"><div>A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not just a tight valley. Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s a confined space often used for ascents or descents.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank">voschix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div>What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the steepness? <br></div><div><br></div><div>Volker<br></div></div><div><div><br></div><table data-darkreader-inline-border-top style="border-top: 1px solid rgb(211, 212, 222); --darkreader-inline-border-top:#3b4042;"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" target="_blank"><img alt style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" width="46" height="29"></a><br></td><td data-darkreader-inline-color style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: rgb(65, 66, 78); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; --darkreader-inline-color:#bbb5ac;">Virus-free. <a data-darkreader-inline-color href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" style="color: rgb(68, 83, 234); --darkreader-inline-color:#4e8deb;" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a><br></td></tr></tbody></table><div><a href="#m_-2501037833912064128_m_5615096739830525576_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a><br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote data-darkreader-inline-border-left class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; --darkreader-inline-border-left:#3e4446;"><div>Renewal of the natural=couloir tag : <a rel="nofollow" title="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/couloir_2" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/couloir_2" target="_blank">Proposed_features/couloir_2</a><br></div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain<br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div> Tagging mailing list<br></div><div> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br></div></blockquote></div><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br></div><div><span>Tagging mailing list</span><br></div><div><span><a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a></span><br></div><div><span><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a></span><br></div></div></blockquote></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div> Tagging mailing list<br></div><div> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br></div></blockquote></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div> Tagging mailing list<br></div><div> <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div>