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<p>I fear the debate is slightly derailing and although I am not completely happy with Manday's tone either I agree with his message. We are trying to have a constructive debate and if arguments need to be repeated - so be it. People involved in OSM change and not everybody, new or not, should be requested to study our complete debate history before starting a thread, neither having to accept advice written in this tone from an apparently "higher" place. I am sure real newbies reading this kind of mail are completely repelled.</p>
<p>I kindly suggest to either contribute with arguments, even though repeated, or references to other debates with the clear goal to find a solution because the thread is aiming to exactly that: Avoid having a duplication of tags describing the exact same thing.</p>
<p>Cheers, Marcos</p>
<p>Am 11.02.2021 15:39, schrieb manday@openmail.cc:</p>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">Instead of "wasting communication bandwidth for everyone" with a lot of unsolicited advice about attitudes and whatnot, you could have elaborated those arguments which you said were not presented, or at least point to a reference.<br /> <br /> It may surprise you, but I did actually not start this thread for my personal benefit (crazy, I know!), but rather because it was suggested that I present my opinion (you call this "made up my mind of what the discussion should be") here for discussion.<br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Have a good day.</span><br /> <br /> And next time you want to speak in this tone, please write off-list, as it would be proper etiquette.<br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Quoting Christoph Hormann <<a href="mailto:osm@imagico.de">osm@imagico.de</a>>:</span><br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">On Thursday 11 February 2021, <a href="mailto:manday@openmail.cc">manday@openmail.cc</a> wrote:</span>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">[...]</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">I would like to point out that no argument other than the ~100k</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">difference for removing `water=river` in favor of `riverbank` has</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">been presented. [...]</span></blockquote>
<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">I have no interest in engaging in this discussion which is a reiteration</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">of a discussion we have already had countless times on this list and</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">elsewhere. But since you seem to be new here (and probably new to OSM</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">in general) a little piece of advice:</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Do not conclude from the fact that people do not engage in a discussion</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">with you that there are no arguments against your views of things.</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">That people do not present you arguments only means that they don't</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">think presenting them would have any benefit. As Frederik recently</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">mentioned repeating the same points over and over again just wastes</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">communication bandwidth for everyone. Not to mention this English</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">language mailing list is only a small and highly selective cutout from</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">the global OSM community.</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Why it is a good idea to make the distinction between standing inland</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">waterbodies and flowing inland water as a distinction in primary</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">tagging has been explained many times over the years. You either</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">* know this and accept this being a valid reason for a distinction in</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">primary tagging between lakes and riverbank polygons.</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">* know this and reject the relevancy of this distinction. Then</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">repeating that point again will not make a difference.</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">* don't know this (because you are new to OSM or to the topic of</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">waterbody mapping and tagging). Then you should not start off a</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">discussion clearly stating you have already made up your mind what the</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">results of the discussion should be. Instead the prudent thing to do</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">is asking - with an open mind - why people prefer tagging riverbank</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">polygons with waterway=riverbank or natural=water respectively. Then</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">you would probably have received an explanation for both sides. And</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">even if you did not it would still be prudent (and also advisable under</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">the principle of "assume good faith") to assume that those who prefer</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">waterway=riverbank (as evidenced by its ongoing use) have a good reason</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">for that.</span></blockquote>
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