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<p>Hi, Joseph.</p>
<p>Thank for your comments.</p>
<p>I have used this tag to map (only two) cemeteries that are
included in protected heritage lists, cementeris whose historic
significance is quite clear. However, that is just my way of
acting. The OSM approach is more open, it does not depend on
official recognition.<br>
<br>
You can map a historic feature in OSM even if it is not officially
recognised as historic heritage by an official organization. The
"Key:historic" page on the wiki sets out factors to be taken into
account in order to consider something as historic in terms of OSM
[1]. I understand that they are of general application, so they
also apply to historic cemeteries. I have indicated this in the
draft in order to clarify doubts in this respect.<br>
</p>
<p>From my experience, I think that almost all cemeteries considered
as "historic cemeteries" will have some kind of official
recognition. But, as I said, this requirement is not mandatory in
OSM.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Daniel</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:historic">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:historic</a></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 11/2/21 a las 18:01, Joseph
Eisenberg escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_2vPi5wt5CrmgVUgDPRW61D8L78+0C_yrgwaFyysRuAsKdew@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Diego,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The problem with this tag is that it is subjective. You
have not provided any verifiable, objective definition which
can be used to determine if a cemetery from 1850 should be
tagged as historic or not. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We don't map subjective information like restaurant
ratings, and we don't map historical data which is no longer
existing in the real world, like the site of an ancient battle
which is now developed into a suburban residential estate. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The features under historic=* should have something real
and current which is mappable, and it should be possible to
visit the location and confirm that the tags are correct or
incorrect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Otherwise, enthusiastic mappers might add this tag to every
churchyard and cemetery in their area which is older than 50
years, and that provides less information than start_date=*
and is less verifiable. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- Joseph Eisenberg</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 2:33
AM Diego Cruz <<a href="mailto:ginkarasu@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ginkarasu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Martin Koppenhoefer,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When I said Baroque or Chopin, I was simply trying to
put examples of reasons to consider a cemetery historic or
not. Of course all the cemeteries you mention can have the
tag historic=cemetery. If you want me to give you concrete
examples instead, I think Recoleta Cemetery in Buenos
Aires, Comillas Cemetery in Spain, Worms Jewish Cemetery
in Germany or Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris qualify for
this tag, apart from those you mention. We can get lost in
the details, but that doesn't mean that this tag isn't
useful and applies to existing objects.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dear Paul Allen,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wouldn't put this tag to the first cemetery in a town
myself, but local communities may think it fit to do so,
because the concept of historic significance can be
different according to the place. For example, I wouldn't
use this tag much in my own area. Around here people used
to be buried inside churches and the currently existing
cemeteries are not older than 1850. <br>
</div>
<div>All the military cemeteries you mention qualify for
this tag in my opinion too. I don't see what's the problem
there. However, contrary to what you say, if there is a
series of Baroque/Merovingian/Native
American/whatever-period-you-like-with-historic-significance
tombs it can be considered a historic ensemble and the
whole can be mapped as historic, apart from the individual
tombs.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards</div>
<div>Diego Cruz<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El jue., 11 feb. 2021
1:41, Daniel Capilla <<a
href="mailto:dcapillae@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">dcapillae@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hello to all.</p>
<p>I also think it is important to map what is inside
the cemetery, not just the cemetery itself (the site).
If the proposal is approved, I plan to write an entry
in my OSM diary explaining why I have decided to make
this proposal. I visited a historic cemetery in my
locality and was mapping some historic graves,
cenotaphs, memorials, columbaria... There is a lot of
local history in a historic cemetery.<br>
</p>
<p>Many historic cemeteries are included in a list of
authorised heritage registrers. Where I live, a
medium-sized city in Spain, there are two historic
cemeteries and both are registered by a competent
heritage authority, one national and one regional.
However, in OSM this requirement is not mandatory for
mapping a historic feature, so I have left the
question open and referred to what the wiki explains
about it.</p>
<p>Establishing the requirements for mapping a historic
feature in OSM goes beyond this proposal (and beyond
my possibilities). This proposal has a very limited
scope in reality. I have modified the draft to make it
clearer. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome.<br>
<br>
In a few days I hope to send the RFC. Thank you for
your cooperation and comments.<br>
</p>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Daniel<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 10/2/21 a las 23:50, Martin Koppenhoefer
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Mi., 10. Feb.
2021 um 00:10 Uhr schrieb Diego Cruz <<a
href="mailto:ginkarasu@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ginkarasu@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Local users can easily verify
if a cemetery is historic or not. This is
partly subjective, but you need to trust
local users' common sense, as in any other
tag.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"> Is there a series of Baroque
tombs? It's historic.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>so it is about age? When you say "baroque",
do you mean from the 17th/18th century, or would
late 18th, 19th and 20th century "baroque" also
qualify? The monumental cemetery of Verano
(Rome) would probably qualify, although it was
opened only in 1812 (while the baroque period
ended around 1740) and most (?) of it is from
the 20th century: <a
href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cimitero_del_Verano"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cimitero_del_Verano</a>
(on the other hand, maybe this does not qualify,
because there is also a very old christian place
of worship, Saint Lawrence outside the Walls,
from the 4th century AD, which is even a Papal
Basilica, and the proposal says: "Its scope of
application is limited to cemeteries in the
sense in which they are understood in
OpenStreetMap: «places usually independent of
place of worship» and «not close to a place of
worship»"?)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> I guess even younger cemeteries would
qualify to be "historic", for example world war
I cemeteries like Douaumont? <a
href="https://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/</a></div>
<div>This seems an easy case, because it is also a
kind of historic=monument for the Verdun battle.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also this is probably a no-brainer, although
people are now living there (it is much older
than baroque): <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_the_Dead_(Cairo)"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_the_Dead_(Cairo)</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Generally, I see a lot of overlap with
archaeological site for many historic burial
places. All of them which are older than a few
hundred years will probably also qualify for
archaelogical site, and there are also already
site types established for it:</div>
<div><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:site_type"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:site_type</a>
in particular: necropolis<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Would the Gizeh site qualify for
historic=cemetery? A massgrave from the Bosnian
war? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"> Is it the last remaining
Jewish cemetery of a region? It's historic.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">I find it a bit difficult
to make a qualitative assessment based on how rare
something is. If locally there are many old jewish
cemeteries, they would not qualify, but if there
is only one left, it would? I am not very familiar
with jewish tradition but I thought to remember
that their deads rest "forever" (or until
salvation by the Messiah) in their burial places,
so the cemetery would remain forever a cemetery,
even if there are no new burials, not?<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"> Is Chopin buried there? It's
historic.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>burial places of famous people are likely
noteworthy, but I am not sure the whole cemetery
becomes historic because Chopin is buried there
- or Jim Morrison. (on a sidenote, no doubt that
Père Lachaise is a historic cemetery).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Not that I could not agree that many
cemeteries, or even most, according to the area
you look at, are of historic value. It's almost
implicit, especially for every cemetery older
than a few decades and of significant size.
Everybody dies, also famous people, and rich
people who can afford to engage notable artists
for the funeral monument, so it seems logical
that any cemetery in a bigger city will have
some famous people buried there.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My recommendation would be to focus on
mapping the things that make the cemetery
"historic", both in terms of components (tombs
etc.) but also regarding the attributes of the
whole site. E.g. for the age, when it is known,
I would recommend to add explicit reference to
the start_date, it is a datum that already tells
more than any historic=yes or cemetery
qualifiers. If it is unknown, you could still
add a rough timespan. Additionally to a start
date, it would be interesting to have the "main
period", because it may well be the case that
the cemetery was used for hundreds or even
thousands of years, but most of the current
tombs are from a much later time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div>Martin<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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