<div dir="ltr"><div>The waterway=riverbank wiki page has at present no reference to the deprecation of 2011.<br></div><div>It carried deprecation remarks in 2015 and until January 2016.</div><div>Reading the old comments, that deprecation of 2011 has not been reflected in the wiki, and people were unhappy with it already in the past.</div><div>Can we please leave things as they are de facto: we have a JOSM tagging and an ID tagging for exactly the same thing. Both have more than 100k uses..Renderers and other data consumers got used to this situation. There is no need to eliminate one or the other.<br></div><div>We are wasting really a lot of time on useless discussions. We have to opposing schools of thought: Many think the wiki describes the actual usage, and from that derives advice for new mappers, and others think that the wiki is an instrument to regulate the tagging, including the voting process that is based on a rather arbitrary procedure, and allows very small groups of people to change things without very much control. I guess that the voting process was originally invented to steer new tags in the correct direction, also there is no mention in the original wiki page on the motivation, but which is now also being used to modify existing tags on a large scale.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 at 16:09, <<a href="mailto:mail@marcos-martinez.net" target="_blank">mail@marcos-martinez.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-size:10pt">
<p>I fear the debate is slightly derailing and although I am not completely happy with Manday's tone either I agree with his message. We are trying to have a constructive debate and if arguments need to be repeated - so be it. People involved in OSM change and not everybody, new or not, should be requested to study our complete debate history before starting a thread, neither having to accept advice written in this tone from an apparently "higher" place. I am sure real newbies reading this kind of mail are completely repelled.</p>
<p>I kindly suggest to either contribute with arguments, even though repeated, or references to other debates with the clear goal to find a solution because the thread is aiming to exactly that: Avoid having a duplication of tags describing the exact same thing.</p>
<p>Cheers, Marcos</p>
<p>Am 11.02.2021 15:39, schrieb manday@openmail.cc:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">Instead of "wasting communication bandwidth for everyone" with a lot of unsolicited advice about attitudes and whatnot, you could have elaborated those arguments which you said were not presented, or at least point to a reference.<br> <br> It may surprise you, but I did actually not start this thread for my personal benefit (crazy, I know!), but rather because it was suggested that I present my opinion (you call this "made up my mind of what the discussion should be") here for discussion.<br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Have a good day.</span><br> <br> And next time you want to speak in this tone, please write off-list, as it would be proper etiquette.<br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Quoting Christoph Hormann <<a href="mailto:osm@imagico.de" target="_blank">osm@imagico.de</a>>:</span><br> <br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px"><span style="white-space:nowrap">On Thursday 11 February 2021, <a href="mailto:manday@openmail.cc" target="_blank">manday@openmail.cc</a> wrote:</span>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px"><span style="white-space:nowrap">[...]</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">I would like to point out that no argument other than the ~100k</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">difference for removing `water=river` in favor of `riverbank` has</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">been presented. [...]</span></blockquote>
<br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">I have no interest in engaging in this discussion which is a reiteration</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">of a discussion we have already had countless times on this list and</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">elsewhere. But since you seem to be new here (and probably new to OSM</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">in general) a little piece of advice:</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Do not conclude from the fact that people do not engage in a discussion</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">with you that there are no arguments against your views of things.</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">That people do not present you arguments only means that they don't</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">think presenting them would have any benefit. As Frederik recently</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">mentioned repeating the same points over and over again just wastes</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">communication bandwidth for everyone. Not to mention this English</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">language mailing list is only a small and highly selective cutout from</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">the global OSM community.</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">Why it is a good idea to make the distinction between standing inland</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">waterbodies and flowing inland water as a distinction in primary</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">tagging has been explained many times over the years. You either</span><br> <br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">* know this and accept this being a valid reason for a distinction in</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">primary tagging between lakes and riverbank polygons.</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">* know this and reject the relevancy of this distinction. Then</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">repeating that point again will not make a difference.</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">* don't know this (because you are new to OSM or to the topic of</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">waterbody mapping and tagging). Then you should not start off a</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">discussion clearly stating you have already made up your mind what the</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">results of the discussion should be. Instead the prudent thing to do</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">is asking - with an open mind - why people prefer tagging riverbank</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">polygons with waterway=riverbank or natural=water respectively. Then</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">you would probably have received an explanation for both sides. And</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">even if you did not it would still be prudent (and also advisable under</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">the principle of "assume good faith") to assume that those who prefer</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">waterway=riverbank (as evidenced by its ongoing use) have a good reason</span><br> <span style="white-space:nowrap">for that.</span></blockquote>
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