<div dir="ltr">I think the general notion that we could tag these landscaping areas as natural=scrub has merit. There is certainly an inherent advantage in using a tag that already renders as well.<div><br></div><div>There is still a need to distinguish between manicured/groomed/landscaped areas and simply natural scrubland. The "managed" key seems like it could work for that. The current description for managed=yes is "landscape or signs indicate management but kind is unclear" which is not quite on the mark, and so I wonder if a new value of "managed" is needed in these cases, or if managed=yes should cover the case.</div><div><br></div><div>Certainly a render that cares to draw these differently would want to have a way to tell landscaping apart from scrubland.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 5:22 PM Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <<a href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>My apologies for this long mail,but I kindly request to take your
time and go through the references, my personal
conclusions/proposal sofar resulting from the ongoing discussions.<br>
</p>
<p>I did some more research to clarify on the issue and I kindly
request to streamline this discussion. I enjoy and encourage the
ongoing discussion and respect every bodies opinion. However, we
are getting nowhere and end up with confused mappers doing their
own thing, creating more mapping and tagging variants and
inconsistencies. We get a "mess" which is ever more difficult to
solve in the long term, doesn't serve our communities cause and
data consistency.</p>
<p>My research summary and what so far came up in the discussion:</p>
<p>Ref.A - OSM wiki on natural=scrub (: "<span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">The
tag </span><tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:natural" title="Key:natural" style="color:rgb(6,69,173);background:none" rel="nofollow
noreferrer" target="_blank">natural</a>=scrub</tt><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> is
used to tag areas of uncultivated land covered with shrubs,
bushes or stunted trees." and important the definition on <br>
key:natural = "</span></span><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">wide
variety of physical geography, <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Geological" title="Geological" target="_blank">geological</a> and <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landcover" title="Landcover" target="_blank">landcover</a> features, including ones
that have been <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Counterintuitive_key_names" title="Counterintuitive key names" target="_blank">modified or created by
humans</a>. <br>
It is also referenced in the Feature:vegetation wiki page
together with natural=heath and barrier=hedge which also
appeared in the discussion as possible solutions and strongly
related:<br>
scrub on Feature:vegetation = "</span></span><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Uncultivated
area with shrubs, bushes or stunted trees - taller than
heath."<br>
heath on Feature:vegetation = "</span></span><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Uncultivated
area with dwarf shrubs and bushes - shorter than scrub."<br>
hedge on Feature:vegetation = "</span></span>Shrubs arranged
in a dense line to form an impassable hedge" and <br>
hedge on Bariier:hedge = "<tt dir="ltr" style="background:rgb(238,238,255);font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><u></u><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:barrier" title="Key:barrier" target="_blank">barrier</a><u></u>=<a><u></u>hedge<u></u></a></tt> is used to identify a line
of closely spaced shrubs and tree species, which form a barrier or
mark the boundary of an area. Hedges may be actively managed, but
this is not always the case." and important<br>
Key:barrier = "A <b>barrier</b> is a physical structure which
blocks or impedes movement." and for hedge on<br>
key:barrier:hedge = "Is a line of closely spaced shrubs and
bushes, planted and trained in such a way as to form a barrier or
to mark the boundary of an area.
"<br>
</p>
<p><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Ref.B
- WIkipedia: "</span></span><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b>Shrubland</b>,
<b>scrubland</b>, <b>scrub</b>, <b>brush</b>, or <b>bush</b>
is a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_community" title="Plant community" target="_blank">plant community</a> characterized by
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetation" title="Vegetation" target="_blank">vegetation</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_(ecology)" title="Dominance (ecology)" target="_blank">dominated</a> by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrub" title="Shrub" target="_blank">shrubs</a>,
often also including <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass" title="Grass" target="_blank">grasses</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbaceous_plant" title="Herbaceous plant" target="_blank">herbs</a>, and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophyte" title="Geophyte" target="_blank">geophytes</a>.
Shrubland may either occur naturally or be the result of human
activity."</span></span></p>
<p><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Ref.C
- from freenecyclodeia:</span></span>scrub·land: An <span>area</span> of <span>land</span> <span>that</span> is <span>uncultivated</span> <span>and</span> <span>covered</span> <span>with</span> <span>sparse</span> <span>stunted</span> <span>vegetation."</span></p>
<p><span>Next let's summarise where, of
course my analysis and opinion, we are at this time on the
discussion requested for the proposal (</span><span><tt dir="ltr" style="background:rgb(238,238,255);font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><u></u><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:landuse" title="Key:landuse" target="_blank">landuse</a><u></u>=<u></u>shrubs<u></u></tt>
to define an area of bushes on cultivated land and in the built
environment, often used for decorative purposes or to fill space
and where <tt dir="ltr" style="background:rgb(238,238,255);font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><u></u><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:barrier" title="Key:barrier" target="_blank">barrier</a><u></u>=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dhedge" title="Tag:barrier=hedge" target="_blank"><u></u>hedge<u></u></a></tt> does not
apply.</span><span><br>
To make it simple lets split it: <br>
Question 1 - Do we need a new<tt> landuse=shrubs or bush. To my
analysis we have consensus on this: NO. <br>
Shrubs are covered by natural=scrub as all references,
including the existing OSM wiki page clearly states that scrub
includes bushes, shrubs etc... . Landuse is a wrong key anyhow
since we want to describe vegetation, not the use of the land
since the examples given are vegetation located in an area
which can be clearly identified with existing landuse, leisure
or amenity keys. So natural would be the most suitable key.
However in natural we also have scrub which covers this type
of vegetation. Landcover or landform as alternative (see
discussion page). The answer is no again since landcover is
less commonly used then natural to describe vegetation,
landform is a key resulting from 1 import and it can be
represented by existing, mostly natural tags.</tt></span><span><tt> Further on, it is not recommended to
overlap different landuse areas. Overlapping a landuse with a
natural area is perfectly OK and supported by most renderers
and data consumers.<br>
</tt></span></p>
<p><span><tt>Question 2 - As the answer on
Question 1 is no, can we use natural=scrub, since scrub refers
to this type of vegetation but on uncultivated land. The
vegetation that we want to tag is on cultivated land, or in
built up areas. To my opinion yes but still under discussion.
It depends on the interpretation of what is "cultivated land".<br>
Notice the difference here that there is a difference in
"cultivated land", as it refers to the land where the
vegetation is growing, not to the "cultivation" of the
vegetation as such! I and others didn't notice that in the
first discussions. Scrub is generally defined as can be seen
in the references as growing on uncultivated land. The
vegetation itself, whether it is scrub or a hedge, can be
maintained or not. When it is maintained does that mean that
the vegetation is cultivated, to my interpretation yes, a
cultivated plant is by definition maintained.<br>
Now what is the general definition of cultivated land:<br>
(from freedictionary): "</tt></span><span>arable</span>
<span>land</span> <span>that</span> is <span>worked</span> by <span>plowing</span> <span>and</span> <span>sowing</span> <span>and</span> <span>raising</span> <span>crops, </span><span>cultivated</span> <span>land</span> <span>that</span> is <span>not</span> <span>seeded</span> <span>for</span> <span>one</span> or <span>more</span> <span>growing</span> <span>seasons is called a fallow (but is still cultivated
land)"<br>
(from wikipedia, cultivated land = arable land): "</span><br>
</p>
<p><b>Arable land</b> (from the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language" title="Latin language" target="_blank">Latin</a>: <i lang="la"><a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/arabilis#Latin" title="wikt:arabilis" target="_blank">arabilis</a></i>, "able to
be <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plow" title="Plow" target="_blank">plowed</a>") is any land
capable of being <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plough" title="Plough" target="_blank">ploughed</a> and used to grow <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop" title="Crop" target="_blank">crops</a>.<sup id="gmail-m_-8027270868203944114cite_ref-oed_1-0"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land#cite_note-oed-1" target="_blank">[1]</a></sup>
Alternatively, for the purposes of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture" title="Agriculture" target="_blank"> agricultural</a> statistics,<sup id="gmail-m_-8027270868203944114cite_ref-2"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land#cite_note-2" target="_blank">[2]</a></sup>
the term often has a more precise definition: </p>
<blockquote>
<p>"Arable land is the land under temporary agricultural crops
(multiple-cropped areas are counted only once), temporary <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadow" title="Meadow" target="_blank">meadows</a>
for mowing or <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasture" title="Pasture" target="_blank">pasture</a>, land under <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_garden" title="Market garden" target="_blank"> market</a> and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_garden" title="Kitchen garden" target="_blank">kitchen gardens</a> and land
temporarily <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallow" title="Fallow" target="_blank">fallow</a> (less than five years). The
abandoned land resulting from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shifting_cultivation" title="Shifting cultivation" target="_blank">shifting cultivation</a> is not
included in this category. Data for 'Arable land' are not meant
to indicate the amount of land that is potentially cultivable."<sup id="gmail-m_-8027270868203944114cite_ref-3"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land#cite_note-3" target="_blank">[3]</a></sup></p>
</blockquote>
<p> A more concise definition appearing in the Eurostat glossary
similarly refers to actual rather than potential uses: "land
worked (ploughed or tilled) regularly, generally under a system of
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation" title="Crop
rotation" target="_blank">crop rotation</a>".</p>
<p>Now the proposal refers to bushes or shrubs that are grown on
cultivated land or in built up areas. The only cultivated land
where we find bushes or shrubs to produce crops (or fruits) are
orchards and (parts of) gardens, allotments, and maybe some plant
nurseries. intended for producing crops. All other land is per
definition NOT cultivated land. Within these land uses, as well as
in farmland, one in general does not map the individual crop or
fruit producing bushes, we map and tag them with the corresponding
landuse tag.<br>
However, parts of the land-uses can be reserved or left
uncultivated. It is appropriately to draw areas on the land uses
and tag them as scrub or heath, as the land where this type of
vegetation grows is PER DEFINITION not cultivated since you have
to remove the vegetation to be able to cultivate that land. Same
as we can find trees that does not produce crops or fruits on
cultivated land, purely ornamental, decorative or whatever other
use. Best practice would be to use multi polygons with inner parts
but we have to decide if overlapping is acceptable since it is
clear by using the scub that the land underneath is not
cultivated. Anyway, this will again open the discussion if we can
overlap different landuses like residential with orchard etc...,
yet for practical reasons in my opinion should be discussed
separately.<br>
Does this mean it can be used for the examples given in the
proposal: yes. The landuse defines the use The use is further
detailed by the fact that shrub or bushes because the
natural=scrub are never used for shurbs or bushes producing crops
or fruits intended for regular harvesting. Their primarily purpose
within (not on, clearly within) a stretch of cultivated land is
defined by the landuse tag. Does this need a managed tag ? Is
optional, the manage tag does not define it's use. Does this need
another key:vaue to define its purpose as decorative / habitat for
fauna / bird nesting etc..., we need a proposal for that. Already
proposed is "Usage", seems to me not appropriate in regard to it's
use with pipelines, waterways etc.... Another candidate is
"denotation" as with trees which seems to me a very suitable
candidate.<br>
Can it be used within a built up area, of course, no problem there
as the built up areas are defined with landuse tags. <br>
</p>
<p>Question 3 - Barrier=hedge does not apply. <br>
Refer to the references at the top. Hedges have a clear specific
use case: to create a barrier, boundary or border (decorative
hedge). The have a typical linear character. Now where it says
that a cultivated bush or shrub is a hedge, in the contrary, a
hedge can be not cultivated and it is specifically described and
defined as such. It even covers hedges that are not managed or
maintained. You can argue, but we can define hedges as areas.
Yes, true (regardless if that is rendered correctly, should be a
separate discussion), same as we can define walls as areas yet
they are also rendered only as lines, even with a area=yes, but
again that's a different issue. To my opinion there is two main
requirements to classify a scrub, bush, shrub or groups of them as
hedge: 1) linear character, even if mapped as an area the area
needs to be predominately linear 2) it has the primary use as a
barrier, border or boundary. <br>
To answer the problem trying to be solved in the proposal: 1) in
some given examples (nr. 3) could be interpreted as linear, All
others no, not linear at all. 2) the primary purpose is
decorative, the barrier effect in some cases (like on the parking)
is by kerbs or other type of barriers, no border or boundary use.
So to my opinion in regard to the proposal but still open for
discussion: barrier=hedge does not apply in these cases.</p>
<p>SUMMARY:</p>
<p>Question 1: consensus on no support creating another top level
key:value. landuse:shrub / landuse:bush. Landcover and landform
surely not supported.<br>
</p>
<p>Question 2: natural=scrub should be used, mapped as an area on or
within an area with a defined landuse. managed=* is optional,
denotation as with trees to further define it's significance..
Actions: extend the related wiki pages with description of what is
cultivated and uncultivated LAND and how to map and tag + what is
to be used to map and tag cultivated and/or managed VEGETATION
(regardless if it is located on cultivated or uncultivated land).<br>
</p>
<p>Question 3: barrier=hedge should not be used in these cases. It
should be used when the vegetation is predominately linear AND has
either a primary purpose or use as barrier, or boundary or border.
Hedges covers both managed / maintained as unmaintained / not
managed. ("cultivated" has never been used as a term with hedges
as far as I can recall).<br>
</p>
<p><span></span></p>
<p><span><tt>Greetings and keep discussing !<br>
Bert Araali</tt></span><span><span><tt dir="ltr" style="background:rgb(238,238,255);font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><u></u><u></u></tt></span></span></p>
<div>On 13/02/2021 16:30, Volker Schmidt
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">This looks again a confusion of scrub and shrub</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 13 Feb 2021, 12:01
Peter Neale via Tagging, <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">IMHO Scrub that has been managed is not
scrub any more.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">The Wiki says, "<span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">The
tag </span><tt dir="ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:natural" title="Key:natural" style="color:rgb(6,69,173);background:none" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">natural</a>=scrub</tt><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> is
used to tag areas of uncultivated land covered
with shrubs, bushes or stunted trees."</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">..and
see also, </span></span><a href="https://www.thefreedictionary.com/scrubland" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.thefreedictionary.com/scrubland</a>,
which says, </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">"
<div>
<h2 style="font-weight:normal;display:inline-block;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:6px;margin-left:0px;color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">scrub·land</h2>
<span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><span style="vertical-align:text-bottom;margin:0px 3px 2px;display:inline-block;width:12px;color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;min-height:20px"><span title="" style="display:inline-block;margin:0px;vertical-align:text-bottom;font-size:0px;letter-spacing:-1px;color:white;width:12px;min-height:18px"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">(skrŭb′lănd′)</span>
<div style="min-width:200px;color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><i>n.</i>
<div style="min-width:200px;margin-left:1cm">An <span>area</span> of <span>land</span> <span>that</span> is <span>uncultivated</span> <span>and</span> <span>covered</span> <span>with</span> <span>sparse</span> <span>stunted</span> <span>vegetation."</span></div>
<div style="min-width:200px;margin-left:1cm"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="min-width:200px;margin-left:1cm"><span><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
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