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<p><font face="Verdana">Mmmm, I am getting you. But the wetland and
grassland keys are used to describe subtypes. Are we going to
use "decorative" or maybe "landscaped" as a subtype ? I can see
advantages in defining a scrub key with subtype values as a
useful and consisting addition.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings, Bert Araali</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/02/2021 21:53, Vincent van
Duijnhoven via Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MTWt1TA--3-2@vanduijnhoven.xyz">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>Indeed. The example values were more to illustrate my point.
But just like wetland=* and grassland=*, scrub=* can be used to
further define the type of scrub(land). <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example, this wiki: <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrubland"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrubland</a> lists
several types of scrub. One of them would be scrub=decoration or
so to be used on the shrub I am trying to find a tag for. The
rest of the wilder bushed can then for example be defined with
the types listed in the wiki.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings,<br>
</div>
<div>Vincent</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>14 feb. 2021 19:25 van <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<p><span class="font" style="font-family:Verdana">Would that be
a wise move ? If we introduce a new scrub key, to be
consistent, we will have to do the same for other vegetation
types, grass= wild / mowed, heath = wild /clipped. I
proposed managed (not that much used) and denotation (widely
used) since they are used for similar attributions, more
specifically for trees. Same as we can use other commonly
used attribution tags like the leaftype for vegetation, even
they could be used on hedge. <br>
Sorry for al the work you have done Vincent, but be sure it
is much appreciated, you started discussion and for sure a
significant improvement on the wiki and tagging consistency.
</span></p>
<p><span class="font" style="font-family:Verdana">Greetings,
Bert Araali</span><br>
</p>
<div class="">On 14/02/2021 20:15, Vincent van Duijnhoven via
Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>I just had a discussion with Brian on the topic. Is it an
idea to instead of introducing landuse=shrub, extend the
natural=scrub with a new tag scrub=wild|decorative? This
better describes the type of scrub than denotation=* or
managed=*.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As explained by Bert Araali, natural=scrub is currently
already used to tag the kind of decorative scrub as
illustrated in my proposal for landuse=shrub. By adding a
new tag to natural=scrub, all that work does not need to be
changed. An advantage is that already gets rendered on
carto. The wiki then needs to be changed to address this
broader definition of scrub and that natural=scrub can be
further defined with scrub=wild|decorative.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Any thoughts on this?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings,<br>
</div>
<div>Vincent<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>14 feb. 2021 14:06 van <a
href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com" class=""
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8;
padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"
class="tutanota_quote">
<p><span style="" class=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana">Hi Vincent,</span></span><br>
</p>
<div><span style="" class=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana">I actually didn't mean an
extension of the use of natural=scrub. In many areas
across the world it is already used in the same
context. For instance here in Africa we have a lot of
bushes planted in parks, golf cources, urban areas
etc... They are mostly all tagged as natural=scrub
and is a tagging habbit grown In most cases they are
managed through clipping, weeding etc... although, due
to the fact we don't do it that often, they might look
"unmanaged".<br>
</span></span>If you mean with native english speakers
UK and US, they don't relate the term scrub to shrub and
bushes in built up areas, your reasoning might be correct.
Other "native" English speaking areas, like here in Africa
and Australia have another interpretation of the term
"bush" in daily use. As we try to find a global consensus,
the term scrub seems to cover the targeted vegetation
type.</div>
<div>Using the term "uncultivated land" in it's definition
is not wrong but needs to be clarified, to my
interpretation it refers to the land the vegetation grows
upon. Of course I agree completely that we need to extend
the wiki, ad mre examples and clarify the true meaning of
scrub, both within and outside of OSM.<br>
</div>
<div>You understood my reasoning in regard to landuse. The
landuse refers to the land the scrub grows upon, and in
most cases, as we look at just the English meaning of
"uncultivated land", it is suitable in its current state
to be used with the examples given in the proposal. If
you follow the OSM guidleines, one item, one tagging
scheme, in most cases you will have a larger landuse area
containing several or even, overlapping areas to detail
the vegetation growing upon it. Same as is already common
with natural=wood or natural=grass, same as for the less
used natural=heath. Same as for landcover which gets some
support but is less commonly used in this context and due
to it's history a bit controversy. I tried to keep in mind
to offer a proposal which is usable for all kinds of
users, cultures etc.. in the world and OSM. The majority
of the mappers are not academics, neither cartographers,
and that is a good thing and one of the reasons if you
allow me to say so, Africans feel at home and comfortable
to contribute here.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In regard to managed and denotation, neither of them
would be a "required" tag. I added it as a proposal to add
more context in the significance, purpose or use, whatever
someone wants to call it, as it was clearly a need within
the original proposal. Denotation, I agree seems to be a
suitable candidate and gaining support. Of course we need
to take care the wiki gets updated and extend denotation
to be used also with natural=scrub and add some usable
proposed values.<br>
</div>
<p>Managed is an approved key but poorly used. I mentioned
it to promote using more attribution of top level tags to
provide detailed information instead of creating or
proposing top level keys. Much in the same way to avoid a
situation and confusion like with forest and wood. As
others have already said, managed describes the process of
how the scrub, bush or shrub is managed, including
maintained. But if you allow me, personally I prefer to
have that discussion in a new and separate thread. A
simple yes/no doesn't describe the management process
clearly, as not maintaining, let vegetation in the broader
context, grow freely is also a management strategy.
Maintaining, with or without defining more details, is
another management strategy. <br>
</p>
<p>I would like to clarify that I am not the writer of this
proposal or a moderator of this thread or talk group. Just
want to help to streamline the discussion. I like to
consider everyone's view and address the whole community
so we finally can come to a consensus and advise to the
writer of the proposal or find someone to extend or
clarify our wiki, which can be anyone feeling comfortable
with the matter and I would be happy to help with..<br>
</p>
<p>Greetings, Bert Araali<br>
</p>
<div class="">On 14/02/2021 12:17, Vincent van Duijnhoven
via Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
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UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the summary.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
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font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">If I understand you correctly, you don't want
to use landuse but rather extend the use of
natural=scrub? You then want to add an additional tag to
natural=scrub like managed or denotation. <br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">I understand your opinion about landuse and I
think I agree. The question is then, introduce a new
natural value or re-built natural=scrub. One thing
though, especially some native English speakers stated
is that when they think of scrub, they think of the wild
version and not the decorative we are talking about.
With "scrubland" in the description of the wiki page, I
would also think the same. I also understand though that
natual=shrub would potentially conflict with
natural=scrub<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">If natural=scrub is adjusted, the wiki page of
natural=scrub would then need to be adjusted to match
both scrub on (un)cultivated land and decorative as
illustrated in the images in my proposal. The definition
then needs to be broadened to give a range of possible
definitions (e.g. scrubland, scrub, for decorative
purposes etc).<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none;">
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
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-webkit-user-drag: none;"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none;">Additionally, I would
personally only use denotation and not managed.
Currently, you also don't add managed=yes to a
natural=tree. I think that if we extend the values of
denotation, it can say more about the scrub than
managed=yes. Possible values:
denotation=urban|wild|decoration.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">Greetings,<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe
UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">Vincent<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>13 feb. 2021 23:19 van <a target="_blank"
rel="noopener noreferrer" class=""
href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px
solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<p>SUMMARY:<br>
</p>
<p>Question 1: consensus on no support creating another
top level key:value. landuse:shrub / landuse:bush.
Landcover and landform surely not supported.<br>
</p>
<p>Question 2: natural=scrub should be used, mapped as
an area on or within an area with a defined landuse.
managed=* is optional, denotation as with trees to
further define it's significance.. Actions: extend the
related wiki pages with description of what is
cultivated and uncultivated LAND and how to map and
tag + what is to be used to map and tag cultivated
and/or managed VEGETATION (regardless if it is located
on cultivated or uncultivated land).<br>
</p>
<p>Question 3: barrier=hedge should not be used in these
cases. It should be used when the vegetation is
predominately linear AND has either a primary purpose
or use as barrier, or boundary or border. Hedges
covers both managed / maintained as unmaintained / not
managed. ("cultivated" has never been used as a term
with hedges as far as I can recall).<br>
</p>
<p><span class=""></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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