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<p><font face="Verdana">Hi Vincent,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">I actually didn't mean an extension of the
use of natural=scrub. In many areas across the world it is
already used in the same context. For instance here in Africa we
have a lot of bushes planted in parks, golf cources, urban areas
etc... They are mostly all tagged as natural=scrub and is a
tagging habbit grown In most cases they are managed through
clipping, weeding etc... although, due to the fact we don't do
it that often, they might look "unmanaged".<br>
</font>If you mean with native english speakers UK and US, they
don't relate the term scrub to shrub and bushes in built up areas,
your reasoning might be correct. Other "native" English speaking
areas, like here in Africa and Australia have another
interpretation of the term "bush" in daily use. As we try to find
a global consensus, the term scrub seems to cover the targeted
vegetation type.<br>
Using the term "uncultivated land" in it's definition is not wrong
but needs to be clarified, to my interpretation it refers to the
land the vegetation grows upon. Of course I agree completely that
we need to extend the wiki, ad mre examples and clarify the true
meaning of scrub, both within and outside of OSM.</p>
<p>You understood my reasoning in regard to landuse. The landuse
refers to the land the scrub grows upon, and in most cases, as we
look at just the English meaning of "uncultivated land", it is
suitable in its current state to be used with the examples given
in the proposal. If you follow the OSM guidleines, one item, one
tagging scheme, in most cases you will have a larger landuse area
containing several or even, overlapping areas to detail the
vegetation growing upon it. Same as is already common with
natural=wood or natural=grass, same as for the less used
natural=heath. Same as for landcover which gets some support but
is less commonly used in this context and due to it's history a
bit controversy. I tried to keep in mind to offer a proposal which
is usable for all kinds of users, cultures etc.. in the world and
OSM. The majority of the mappers are not academics, neither
cartographers, and that is a good thing and one of the reasons if
you allow me to say so, Africans feel at home and comfortable to
contribute here.<br>
<br>
In regard to managed and denotation, neither of them would be a
"required" tag. I added it as a proposal to add more context in
the significance, purpose or use, whatever someone wants to call
it, as it was clearly a need within the original proposal.
Denotation, I agree seems to be a suitable candidate and gaining
support. Of course we need to take care the wiki gets updated and
extend denotation to be used also with natural=scrub and add some
usable proposed values.</p>
<p>Managed is an approved key but poorly used. I mentioned it to
promote using more attribution of top level tags to provide
detailed information instead of creating or proposing top level
keys. Much in the same way to avoid a situation and confusion
like with forest and wood. As others have already said, managed
describes the process of how the scrub, bush or shrub is managed,
including maintained. But if you allow me, personally I prefer to
have that discussion in a new and separate thread. A simple yes/no
doesn't describe the management process clearly, as not
maintaining, let vegetation in the broader context, grow freely is
also a management strategy. Maintaining, with or without defining
more details, is another management strategy. <br>
</p>
<p>I would like to clarify that I am not the writer of this proposal
or a moderator of this thread or talk group. Just want to help to
streamline the discussion. I like to consider everyone's view and
address the whole community so we finally can come to a consensus
and advise to the writer of the proposal or find someone to extend
or clarify our wiki, which can be anyone feeling comfortable with
the matter and I would be happy to help with..<br>
</p>
<p>Greetings, Bert Araali<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/02/2021 12:17, Vincent van
Duijnhoven via Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MTUpEO7--B-2@vanduijnhoven.xyz">
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Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
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<div>Thanks for the summary.<br>
</div>
</div>
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-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">If I understand you correctly, you don't want to use
landuse but rather extend the use of natural=scrub? You then
want to add an additional tag to natural=scrub like managed or
denotation. <br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">I understand your opinion about landuse and I think I
agree. The question is then, introduce a new natural value or
re-built natural=scrub. One thing though, especially some native
English speakers stated is that when they think of scrub, they
think of the wild version and not the decorative we are talking
about. With "scrubland" in the description of the wiki page, I
would also think the same. I also understand though that
natual=shrub would potentially conflict with natural=scrub<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">If natural=scrub is adjusted, the wiki page of
natural=scrub would then need to be adjusted to match both scrub
on (un)cultivated land and decorative as illustrated in the
images in my proposal. The definition then needs to be broadened
to give a range of possible definitions (e.g. scrubland, scrub,
for decorative purposes etc).<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0,
0); -webkit-user-drag: none;">
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none;"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0,
0); -webkit-user-drag: none;">Additionally, I would personally
only use denotation and not managed. Currently, you also don't
add managed=yes to a natural=tree. I think that if we extend
the values of denotation, it can say more about the scrub than
managed=yes. Possible values:
denotation=urban|wild|decoration.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">Greetings,<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box; user-select:
text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI
Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">Vincent<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>13 feb. 2021 23:19 van <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<p>SUMMARY:<br>
</p>
<p>Question 1: consensus on no support creating another top
level key:value. landuse:shrub / landuse:bush. Landcover and
landform surely not supported.<br>
</p>
<p>Question 2: natural=scrub should be used, mapped as an area
on or within an area with a defined landuse. managed=* is
optional, denotation as with trees to further define it's
significance.. Actions: extend the related wiki pages with
description of what is cultivated and uncultivated LAND and
how to map and tag + what is to be used to map and tag
cultivated and/or managed VEGETATION (regardless if it is
located on cultivated or uncultivated land).<br>
</p>
<p>Question 3: barrier=hedge should not be used in these cases.
It should be used when the vegetation is predominately linear
AND has either a primary purpose or use as barrier, or
boundary or border. Hedges covers both managed / maintained as
unmaintained / not managed. ("cultivated" has never been used
as a term with hedges as far as I can recall).<br>
</p>
<p><span class=""></span><br>
</p>
<p><span class=""></span></p>
<div><span class="font"
style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier
new",monospace">Greetings and keep discussing !<br>
Bert Araali</span></div>
<span class=""><span class="">
<div><span class="font"
style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier
new",monospace"><bdi></bdi></span><br>
</div>
</span></span>
<div class="">On 13/02/2021 16:30, Volker Schmidt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">This looks again a confusion of scrub and
shrub<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" dir="ltr">On Sat, 13 Feb 2021, 12:01 Peter
Neale via Tagging, <<a
href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" rel="noopener
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex" class="">
<div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:16px">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">IMHO Scrub that has been managed is
not scrub any more.<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>The Wiki says, "<br>
</div>
<span>
<div><span style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34);"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:14px">The
tag </span></span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:menlo,consolas,"courier
new",monospace"><a target="_blank"
rel="noopener noreferrer"
style="color:rgb(6,69,173);background:none"
title="Key:natural"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:natural"
moz-do-not-send="true">natural</a>=scrub</span><span
style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34);"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:14px"> is
used to tag areas of uncultivated land
covered with shrubs, bushes or stunted
trees."</span></span></span><br>
</div>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color: rgb(32, 33,
34);"><span class="font"
style="font-family:sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:14px"></span></span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color: rgb(32, 33,
34);"><span class="font"
style="font-family:sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:14px">..and
see also, </span></span></span></span><a
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://www.thefreedictionary.com/scrubland"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.thefreedictionary.com/scrubland</a>,
which says, <br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>" <br>
</div>
<div>
<h2
style="font-weight:normal;display:inline-block;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:6px;margin-left:0px;color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">scrub·land<br>
</h2>
<div><span style="color: rgb(64, 64, 64);"><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="vertical-align: text-bottom; margin:
0px 3px 2px; display: inline-block; width:
12px; color: rgb(64, 64, 64); min-height:
20px;"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span style="display:
inline-block; margin: 0px;
vertical-align: text-bottom;
letter-spacing: -1px; color: white;
width: 12px; min-height: 18px;" title=""><span
class="size" style="font-size:0px"></span></span></span></span><span
style="color: rgb(64, 64, 64);"><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="color: rgb(64, 64, 64);"><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif">(skrŭb′lănd′)</span></span>
<br>
</div>
<div
style="min-width:200px;color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div><i>n.</i> <br>
</div>
<div style="min-width:200px;margin-left:1cm">An <span>area</span> of <span>land</span> <span>that</span> is <span>uncultivated</span> <span>and</span> <span>covered</span> <span>with</span> <span>sparse</span> <span>stunted</span> <span>vegetation."</span><br>
</div>
<div style="min-width:200px;margin-left:1cm"><span></span><br>
</div>
<div style="min-width:200px;margin-left:1cm"><span></span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Ing. Bert Van Opstal
Mobile: +256 782 304106
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a></div>
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