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<p><font face="Verdana">Would that be a wise move ? If we introduce
a new scrub key, to be consistent, we will have to do the same
for other vegetation types, grass= wild / mowed, heath = wild
/clipped. I proposed managed (not that much used) and denotation
(widely used) since they are used for similar attributions, more
specifically for trees. Same as we can use other commonly used
attribution tags like the leaftype for vegetation, even they
could be used on hedge. <br>
Sorry for al the work you have done Vincent, but be sure it is
much appreciated, you started discussion and for sure a
significant improvement on the wiki and tagging consistency. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings, Bert Araali</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/02/2021 20:15, Vincent van
Duijnhoven via Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MTWXaEk--3-2@vanduijnhoven.xyz">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>I just had a discussion with Brian on the topic. Is it an
idea to instead of introducing landuse=shrub, extend the
natural=scrub with a new tag scrub=wild|decorative? This better
describes the type of scrub than denotation=* or managed=*.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As explained by Bert Araali, natural=scrub is currently
already used to tag the kind of decorative scrub as illustrated
in my proposal for landuse=shrub. By adding a new tag to
natural=scrub, all that work does not need to be changed. An
advantage is that already gets rendered on carto. The wiki then
needs to be changed to address this broader definition of scrub
and that natural=scrub can be further defined with
scrub=wild|decorative.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Any thoughts on this?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings,<br>
</div>
<div>Vincent</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>14 feb. 2021 14:06 van <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<p><span class="font" style="font-family:Verdana">Hi Vincent,</span><br>
</p>
<div><span class="font" style="font-family:Verdana">I actually
didn't mean an extension of the use of natural=scrub. In
many areas across the world it is already used in the same
context. For instance here in Africa we have a lot of bushes
planted in parks, golf cources, urban areas etc... They are
mostly all tagged as natural=scrub and is a tagging habbit
grown In most cases they are managed through clipping,
weeding etc... although, due to the fact we don't do it that
often, they might look "unmanaged".<br>
</span>If you mean with native english speakers UK and US,
they don't relate the term scrub to shrub and bushes in built
up areas, your reasoning might be correct. Other "native"
English speaking areas, like here in Africa and Australia have
another interpretation of the term "bush" in daily use. As we
try to find a global consensus, the term scrub seems to cover
the targeted vegetation type.</div>
<div> Using the term "uncultivated land" in it's definition is
not wrong but needs to be clarified, to my interpretation it
refers to the land the vegetation grows upon. Of course I
agree completely that we need to extend the wiki, ad mre
examples and clarify the true meaning of scrub, both within
and outside of OSM.<br>
</div>
<div>You understood my reasoning in regard to landuse. The
landuse refers to the land the scrub grows upon, and in most
cases, as we look at just the English meaning of "uncultivated
land", it is suitable in its current state to be used with the
examples given in the proposal. If you follow the OSM
guidleines, one item, one tagging scheme, in most cases you
will have a larger landuse area containing several or even,
overlapping areas to detail the vegetation growing upon it.
Same as is already common with natural=wood or natural=grass,
same as for the less used natural=heath. Same as for landcover
which gets some support but is less commonly used in this
context and due to it's history a bit controversy. I tried to
keep in mind to offer a proposal which is usable for all kinds
of users, cultures etc.. in the world and OSM. The majority of
the mappers are not academics, neither cartographers, and that
is a good thing and one of the reasons if you allow me to say
so, Africans feel at home and comfortable to contribute here.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> In regard to managed and denotation, neither of them would
be a "required" tag. I added it as a proposal to add more
context in the significance, purpose or use, whatever someone
wants to call it, as it was clearly a need within the original
proposal. Denotation, I agree seems to be a suitable candidate
and gaining support. Of course we need to take care the wiki
gets updated and extend denotation to be used also with
natural=scrub and add some usable proposed values.<br>
</div>
<p>Managed is an approved key but poorly used. I mentioned it to
promote using more attribution of top level tags to provide
detailed information instead of creating or proposing top
level keys. Much in the same way to avoid a situation and
confusion like with forest and wood. As others have already
said, managed describes the process of how the scrub, bush or
shrub is managed, including maintained. But if you allow me,
personally I prefer to have that discussion in a new and
separate thread. A simple yes/no doesn't describe the
management process clearly, as not maintaining, let vegetation
in the broader context, grow freely is also a management
strategy. Maintaining, with or without defining more details,
is another management strategy. <br>
</p>
<p>I would like to clarify that I am not the writer of this
proposal or a moderator of this thread or talk group. Just
want to help to streamline the discussion. I like to consider
everyone's view and address the whole community so we finally
can come to a consensus and advise to the writer of the
proposal or find someone to extend or clarify our wiki, which
can be anyone feeling comfortable with the matter and I would
be happy to help with..<br>
</p>
<p>Greetings, Bert Araali<br>
</p>
<div class="">On 14/02/2021 12:17, Vincent van Duijnhoven via
Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div><br>
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<div>Thanks for the summary.<br>
</div>
</div>
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BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">If I understand you correctly, you don't want to
use landuse but rather extend the use of natural=scrub? You
then want to add an additional tag to natural=scrub like
managed or denotation. <br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">I understand your opinion about landuse and I
think I agree. The question is then, introduce a new natural
value or re-built natural=scrub. One thing though,
especially some native English speakers stated is that when
they think of scrub, they think of the wild version and not
the decorative we are talking about. With "scrubland" in the
description of the wiki page, I would also think the same. I
also understand though that natual=shrub would potentially
conflict with natural=scrub<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">If natural=scrub is adjusted, the wiki page of
natural=scrub would then need to be adjusted to match both
scrub on (un)cultivated land and decorative as illustrated
in the images in my proposal. The definition then needs to
be broadened to give a range of possible definitions (e.g.
scrubland, scrub, for decorative purposes etc).<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none;">
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);
-webkit-user-drag: none;"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none;">Additionally,
I would personally only use denotation and not managed.
Currently, you also don't add managed=yes to a
natural=tree. I think that if we extend the values of
denotation, it can say more about the scrub than
managed=yes. Possible values:
denotation=urban|wild|decoration.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">Greetings,<br>
</div>
<div style="outline: none; box-sizing: border-box;
user-select: text !important; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-user-drag: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif,
"Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji",
"Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial;
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">Vincent<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>13 feb. 2021 23:19 van <a
href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com" class=""
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8;
padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"
class="tutanota_quote">
<p>SUMMARY:<br>
</p>
<p>Question 1: consensus on no support creating another top
level key:value. landuse:shrub / landuse:bush. Landcover
and landform surely not supported.<br>
</p>
<p>Question 2: natural=scrub should be used, mapped as an
area on or within an area with a defined landuse.
managed=* is optional, denotation as with trees to further
define it's significance.. Actions: extend the related
wiki pages with description of what is cultivated and
uncultivated LAND and how to map and tag + what is to be
used to map and tag cultivated and/or managed VEGETATION
(regardless if it is located on cultivated or uncultivated
land).<br>
</p>
<p>Question 3: barrier=hedge should not be used in these
cases. It should be used when the vegetation is
predominately linear AND has either a primary purpose or
use as barrier, or boundary or border. Hedges covers both
managed / maintained as unmaintained / not managed.
("cultivated" has never been used as a term with hedges as
far as I can recall).<br>
</p>
<p><span class=""></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
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