<div dir="ltr"><div>BTW: "pattern" is an Irish English term for "Patron Saint". So that part of the definition should be translated fro Irisch English to British English.<br></div><div>And Christian "Saints" are not deities, at least according to the official Roman Catholic Teaching. So this would "entty of veneratio (Saint, deity,...)"</div><div><br></div><div>I am aware of such places also in the Roman Catholic German speaking areas. There is often a spring near or even inside a chapel. It works in a different way: people go to the chapel and pray to the local Saint and use the supposed healing capabilities of the water. For example they may wash their head against headaches and the like, because that particular spring can help, I guess I would not call the well holy, but the chapel would be holy place. Obviously many of these places date back to ancient Roman times, when each spring had its own deuty. When the Christian faith arrived the priests tried would build on the local traditions, and build a chapel or church on top of the Roman sanctuary, and replaced the "pagan" deity with a "Christian" Saint.</div><div>What i'm really asking: is the well the holy object of devotion, or the nearby chapel or shrine or cross.</div><div>And, obviously, there are other parts of the world where the spring or well itself is the residence of a deity..</div><div>Coming back to the Chistian context: I know of places where the chapel is near to a spring or well, but not on top of it. And the spring or well can be also a short distance away. Would that chapel still be "with a holy well", or would the spring be the holy place and the chapel a separate, nearby holy place? <br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div><br></div><div>Violker<br></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 21:50, Anne-Karoline Distel <<a href="mailto:annekadistel@web.de">annekadistel@web.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>For Ireland, it is easy enough:<br>
Do people call it a holy well? - It is a holy well. <br>
</p>
<p>Is a saint associated with the well? - It is a holy well.</p>
<p>Do people cross themselves when passing it? - It's a place of
worship.</p>
<p>Do people hold patterns every year? - It is a place of worship.</p>
<p>Do people leave votive offerings? - It is a place of worship.</p>
<p>Do people go there to pray? - It is a place of worship.<br>
</p>
<div>Am 18/02/2021 um 20:32 schrieb Mateusz
Konieczny via Tagging:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Many places with "miraculous water" / "blessed water" do not
qualify for<br>
</div>
<div>amenity=place_of_worship, and such tagging would be incorrect<span><span style="font-family:Verdana"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Feb 18, 2021, 21:25 by <a href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com" target="_blank">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px">
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">Dear Anne,</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">You should
abstain from using specific religious terms like "holy" and
"paganism".<br>
To my honest opinion the existing tagging schemes and
attribution for amenity=place_of_worship combined with
tourist=attraction offer enough flexibility and most of all
neutrality in the religious context to suite your needs.<br>
Of course there are numerous wells across the world with
either a religious significance (sometimes the same well is
significant in different religions or to different
denominations). Some have significance for tourism purposes,
others might be preferred by the worshippers, to be
accessible only in a more private context.<br>
Please read through the related wiki pages, to my opinion
very detailed and of high quality to address your local
specific needs and offering enough variation for any
religious or tourist related significance. You can extend
them to suite your specific needs, I personally see no need
for a new key or value for this purpose or revert to a
proposal if you feel you need broader confirmation from the
community. Do respect neutrality in the additions or
modifications.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">Greetings,
Bert Araali</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana"></span><br>
</p>
<div>On 18/02/2021 21:31, Anne-Karoline Distel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>I understand it's a bit of a tricky one. Wishing wells/
fountains mostly used by tourists should not count, because
there is not an established religion behind that thinking of
leaving a coin for good luck. They are all votive offerings
though, no matter if they are rags or coins or whatever else
people leave there (probably masks now, I haven't been to a
site since lockdown).<br>
</p>
<p>Good rule of thumb: If it has a saint's name attached, it's
a holy well. Or rather "holy well".<br>
</p>
<p>Anne<br>
</p>
<div>Am 18/02/2021 um 16:04 schrieb Volker Schmidt:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Interesting idea.<br>
</div>
<div>But difficult to define.<br>
</div>
<div>There is a wide spectrum from really sacred places,
like chapels with a spring inside to the wells or
fountains where people go with plastic bottles <br>
</div>
<div>to collect "good" or "healthy" water.and the wells
that tourists fill with coins (no drinking water there).<br>
</div>
<div>I would rather see this somehow under the tourism
tent - pilgrimage is the original form of tourism.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Volker<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 14:42,
Anne-Karoline Distel <<a href="mailto:annekadistel@web.de" rel="noopener
noreferrer" target="_blank">annekadistel@web.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>It's me again, full of ideas.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I propose a tag for holy wells, one of the reasons
being that my local<br>
</div>
<div> council wants them mapped and I've been trying to
convince them to use<br>
</div>
<div> OSM for a while. Also, because it would entice
rural mappers to get<br>
</div>
<div> started and because they play a role in tourism
(if you count pilgrimage<br>
</div>
<div> as tourism).<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/holy_well" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/holy_well</a><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I'm especially interested in other religions'
perspective, but I don't<br>
</div>
<div> know if this phenomenon exists outside
Christianity and Paganism.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Cheers,<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Anne<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
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