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<p>I'm gonna get killed here, if I translate into the imperialistic
language version. Also, "pattern" is not just the patron saint,
but the feast/ mass celebrated on their day, so I cannot translate
it with "patron saint".<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 18/02/2021 um 21:45 schrieb Volker
Schmidt:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>BTW: "pattern" is an Irish English term for "Patron Saint".
So that part of the definition should be translated fro Irisch
English to British English.<br>
</div>
<div>And Christian "Saints" are not deities, at least according
to the official Roman Catholic Teaching. So this would "entty
of veneratio (Saint, deity,...)"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am aware of such places also in the Roman Catholic German
speaking areas. There is often a spring near or even inside a
chapel. It works in a different way: people go to the chapel
and pray to the local Saint and use the supposed healing
capabilities of the water. For example they may wash their
head against headaches and the like, because that particular
spring can help, I guess I would not call the well holy, but
the chapel would be holy place. Obviously many of these places
date back to ancient Roman times, when each spring had its own
deuty. When the Christian faith arrived the priests tried
would build on the local traditions, and build a chapel or
church on top of the Roman sanctuary, and replaced the "pagan"
deity with a "Christian" Saint.</div>
<div>What i'm really asking: is the well the holy object of
devotion, or the nearby chapel or shrine or cross.</div>
<div>And, obviously, there are other parts of the world where
the spring or well itself is the residence of a deity..</div>
<div>Coming back to the Chistian context: I know of places where
the chapel is near to a spring or well, but not on top of it.
And the spring or well can be also a short distance away.
Would that chapel still be "with a holy well", or would the
spring be the holy place and the chapel a separate, nearby
holy place? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Violker<br>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 21:50,
Anne-Karoline Distel <<a href="mailto:annekadistel@web.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">annekadistel@web.de</a>> wrote:<br>
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0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>For Ireland, it is easy enough:<br>
Do people call it a holy well? - It is a holy well. <br>
</p>
<p>Is a saint associated with the well? - It is a holy well.</p>
<p>Do people cross themselves when passing it? - It's a
place of worship.</p>
<p>Do people hold patterns every year? - It is a place of
worship.</p>
<p>Do people leave votive offerings? - It is a place of
worship.</p>
<p>Do people go there to pray? - It is a place of worship.<br>
</p>
<div>Am 18/02/2021 um 20:32 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via
Tagging:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Many places with "miraculous water" / "blessed water"
do not qualify for<br>
</div>
<div>amenity=place_of_worship, and such tagging would be
incorrect<span><span style="font-family:Verdana"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Feb 18, 2021, 21:25 by <a
href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid
rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px">
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">Dear Anne,</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">You should abstain
from using specific religious terms like "holy" and
"paganism".<br>
To my honest opinion the existing tagging schemes
and attribution for amenity=place_of_worship
combined with tourist=attraction offer enough
flexibility and most of all neutrality in the
religious context to suite your needs.<br>
Of course there are numerous wells across the world
with either a religious significance (sometimes the
same well is significant in different religions or
to different denominations). Some have significance
for tourism purposes, others might be preferred by
the worshippers, to be accessible only in a more
private context.<br>
Please read through the related wiki pages, to my
opinion very detailed and of high quality to address
your local specific needs and offering enough
variation for any religious or tourist related
significance. You can extend them to suite your
specific needs, I personally see no need for a new
key or value for this purpose or revert to a
proposal if you feel you need broader confirmation
from the community. Do respect neutrality in the
additions or modifications.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">Greetings, Bert
Araali</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana"></span><br>
</p>
<div>On 18/02/2021 21:31, Anne-Karoline Distel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>I understand it's a bit of a tricky one. Wishing
wells/ fountains mostly used by tourists should not
count, because there is not an established religion
behind that thinking of leaving a coin for good
luck. They are all votive offerings though, no
matter if they are rags or coins or whatever else
people leave there (probably masks now, I haven't
been to a site since lockdown).<br>
</p>
<p>Good rule of thumb: If it has a saint's name
attached, it's a holy well. Or rather "holy well".<br>
</p>
<p>Anne<br>
</p>
<div>Am 18/02/2021 um 16:04 schrieb Volker Schmidt:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Interesting idea.<br>
</div>
<div>But difficult to define.<br>
</div>
<div>There is a wide spectrum from really sacred
places, like chapels with a spring inside to the
wells or fountains where people go with plastic
bottles <br>
</div>
<div>to collect "good" or "healthy" water.and the
wells that tourists fill with coins (no drinking
water there).<br>
</div>
<div>I would rather see this somehow under the
tourism tent - pilgrimage is the original form
of tourism.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Volker<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 14:42,
Anne-Karoline Distel <<a
href="mailto:annekadistel@web.de"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">annekadistel@web.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>It's me again, full of ideas.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I propose a tag for holy wells, one of the
reasons being that my local<br>
</div>
<div> council wants them mapped and I've been
trying to convince them to use<br>
</div>
<div> OSM for a while. Also, because it would
entice rural mappers to get<br>
</div>
<div> started and because they play a role in
tourism (if you count pilgrimage<br>
</div>
<div> as tourism).<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/holy_well"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/holy_well</a><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I'm especially interested in other
religions' perspective, but I don't<br>
</div>
<div> know if this phenomenon exists outside
Christianity and Paganism.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Cheers,<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Anne<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>
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