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<p><font face="Verdana">OK, despite the rather technical explanation
I was able to understand it. But it doesn't make the description
in the proposal wrong.<br>
If I refer back to the old original disapproved proposal from
2012 (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/couloir">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/couloir</a>)
it is exactly what it said there, except of the missing
steepness details. Neither does the new description from Yves
said this, you just introduce a new steepness criteria.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">I propose you guys as specialists find
common ground on which criteria are applicable here to
distinguish one from the other.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">As a non-specialist my analysis so far:</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"> width
ridges & summits caused by
terrain<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">valley wide >100m
multiple rivers or ice erosion
in mountainous terrain only ?<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">gorge narrow <100m ???
single ???? river or water flow
not part of cliff<br>
also outside mountaineers terrain<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">gully small scale
single ???? </font><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"> river or water
flow also outside mountains </font>
what is a few ten meters
?
is a BARRIER, needs climbing<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">couloir 1m < 500m ????
single ???? might be river or water
flow only in solid mountain mass<br>
but includes other causes is not a BARRIER, doesn't need <br>
climbing, can be hiked, skied.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">and distinguished from other specific
mountain features by it has steep sides on both sides, other
named featurs the steepnes or character is one-sided.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">So looking at the above it seems clear to me
(not saying correct): a couloir is distinguished from a gully by
mainly 2 criteria: it CAN have a larger width but the main
criteria is the terrain: IS NOT A BARRIER that needs to be
climbed, only in SOLID MOUNTAIN MASS. A gully by definition
needs to be climbed ?<br>
<br>
Hope this helps, please agree or find a compromise.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Bert Araali<br>
</font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/02/2021 18:39, Kevin Kenny wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALREZe9CXJCLVA8he++cJ-oZJ-i0VZQ0oPOAqSTfb+g4ybCP6Q@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 7:22 PM Bert -Araali- Van
Opstal <<a href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Verdana">Gully or gorge = created by
flowing water or ice, also applicable for desert</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Couloir = similar appearance but
not created by erosion but by other phenomena which
only appear in mountains.<br>
</font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="gmail_signature">That's a part of the description
that I found confusing, because in my part of the world,
virtually all surface topography is erosional. </div>
<div class="gmail_signature"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_signature">Even the large couloir for which I
posted a video link earlier (I since discovered a trip log
with excellent images at <a
href="https://alavigne.net/Outdoors/ImageGallery/2015/06-27-TrapDike/?n=2#id=54959"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://alavigne.net/Outdoors/ImageGallery/2015/06-27-TrapDike/?n=2#id=54959</a>)
has a complex history. The rock on either side is anorthosite
gneiss, and is among the oldest rock on the planet, being on
the fringes of the Canadian Shield. The gneiss is broken by a
newer intrusion of a narrow dike of gabbro (essentially, a
coarser-grained form of basalt). Over the eons, repeated
glaciations, avalanches, and freeze-thaw cycles have eroded
the gabbro away leaving the deep, narrow, steep chute that we
have today. Because the climate here is relatively wet, a
stream does flow in the couloir (and the hardest part of the
route is ascending the two waterfalls). </div>
<div class="gmail_signature"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_signature">Farther south, the Catskill
Mountains aren't mountains at all, geologically, but rather
aretes of sedimentary rock in a dissected plateau. They still
have features of similar topography. <a
href="https://i0.wp.com/mountain-hiking.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Twin-Cave.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://i0.wp.com/mountain-hiking.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Twin-Cave.jpg</a>
and <a href="https://i.redd.it/ho2zisofspn41.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://i.redd.it/ho2zisofspn41.jpg</a>
are sculpted purely by erosion. (They don't look like alpine
couloirs, because they're below the tree line, but they get
the same sort of conditions in winter and offer similar lines
of ascent.)</div>
<div class="gmail_signature"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_signature">I would agree that you see couloirs
only in mountains (or other cliffy features such as canyon
walls), because only mountains are steep enough to have them.</div>
<div class="gmail_signature"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_signature">To me, the distinguishing features
are that a couloir has rock walls on both sides and a steep
gradient. Usually the climbing is at least class 3 on the
Yosemite scale, and may be considerably more technical,
particularly when there's ice about.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">-- </div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin</div>
</div>
<br>
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